Are You a fundamentalist.........Atheist?

UndecidedFrog · November 20, 2004

Dear artsylady,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

In China you can be jailed or killed for being a Christian. Do you find this
'right' or 'moral'?

Please clarify your question. From which perspective do you wish me to answer?

1) From a christian perspective, I would probably say it is not moral to kill my brother or sister, wherever they may be, no matter what they have done.

2) From a chinese perspective, I would probably say it depends on what the foreigner did to deserve killing. Were they trying to spread unholy doctrine? Are they a threat to our culture?

After you have chosen, please answer this for me:

In the Ottoman Empire many ages ago during the crusades and in the name of their god, Christians killed many muslims in their own land in an attempt to capture Jerusalem. Do you find this 'right' or 'moral'?

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

UndecidedFrog · November 20, 2004

Dear ChadB,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

You are absolutely nuts if you think its ok for someone to eat another person if it goes with their culture. I bet you would love to be friends with Hitler or maybe even some other famous murderers. But hey, that went with their microculture(murdering) so I guess its ok. DON'T YOU SEE? Saying something is OK just because it goes with their culture means NOTHING IS WRONG!!!! What defines a culture? Where are the limits.

I am a firm believer. I love God with all my heart but I truly believe that you and the rest of the atheists on this site are here to argue for whatever reason(fear that you are wrong maybe or possibly searching for truth) and attempt to sway believers from the truth because of your intelligent pride. Argue if you will but that is the truth, no matter what you say. I hope it because you are searching for truth. I will visit this site no more. I will continue to pray for you but my staying here only angers me when I hear remarks like those that you make. I don't want my being upset to set a bad example. I hope and pray Christ will someday become a part of your life. I am so frustrated now I can hardly write.

I am truly sorry that you feel that way. Please refer to my preamble I have above all my posts. You do not have to accept my opinions if you dislike them.

I respect your right to believe me nuts on the one hand and to believe me guilty of intelligent pride on the other hand. It would be useless for me to argue your beliefs, even though some of those beliefs are ad-hominem attacks on me.

I do not wish to anger you, and I am truly sorry that you have been angered by my opinions. Please disregard my opinions if they anger or frustrate you. Be at peace. The last thing I want are angry and frustrated christians around me, if you understand what I mean.

Let me pray to your god for you...Oh Jesus Christ, god, please alleviate the frustration and the anger that your believer ChadB feels when he reads my opinions. Please bring comfort to him, and let him be at peace with himself and the world. Amen.

Hope you feel better,

UndecidedFrog

Slippery Slope · November 20, 2004

Let me pray to your god for you...Oh Jesus Christ, god, please alleviate the frustration and the anger that your believer ChadB feels when he reads my opinions. Please bring comfort to him, and let him be at peace with himself and the world. Amen.

Hope you feel better,

UndecidedFrog

If he does feel better will you attribute his recovery to your prayer to his god?

Still waiting

-SS

UndecidedFrog · November 20, 2004

Dear Slippery Slope,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

If he does feel better will you attribute his recovery to your prayer to his god?

Edited November 20, 2004 by UndecidedFrog

artsylady · November 21, 2004

Undecided Frog:

1) Is it wrong for them? Or is right and wrong a matter of geography?
Yes, but it is a matter of more than geography, it is culture as well. Depending on which culture you are in when you commit an act, it could be considered right or wrong by that culture. If it is considered wrong, you would probably be punished to some degree. Morals stem from societies and culture. I do not believe in spirits, so you will understand that I do not believe morals are spiritually based.

Okay then. For the most part, do you beleive morals are 'religioulsy-based'?

2) Is it OK for cannibals to kill each other because they live somewhere else? I don't know about kill. I do know that in some cultures, cannibalism is accepted, and the eating of another human is considered acceptable. In this case IMHO, it is OK to eat another human under the culturally accepted norms in the society where such norms are accepted. Of course you will not find me amongst them enjoying such a meal since I was not brought up in such a culture.

My guess is that before this discussion got to deep, you would have said that you as an athiest, value human life and that killing is wrong. After all, even as an athiest you have your own moral code, right? Now, you'll have to relook at your moral code. Now, you're saying that it's not wrong to kill another human being, or even eat another human being, depending on the circumstances.

3)Is female genital mutilation OK if they do it somewhere else? I know that such mutilation is not acceptable here in the US. But is some cultures in Africa, I know that it is accepted as the norm. Who am I to tell them that they are wrong? Who am I to know that what they do is wrong for them in their own country? I think many of us fail to see why people behave as they do and consider anything foreign as evil. I would leave them alone.

So it's okay to to medically mutilate a girl's genitals with a knife and an audience at the age of 12 depending on where you were raised? (And this means cutting off everything external)

Is there anything that is wrong? It seems that you may have your own personal list of do's and don'ts, but is there anything that is just plain 'wrong' for anyone and everyone to do or not do?

If you had a daughter who moved to the Sudan, would it be perfectly okay for her to undergo the above practise?

artsylady · November 21, 2004

Undecided Frog:

You didn't answer the question.

You are stranded in your car 10 miles from a garage, with no phone. Everyone that passes you is either someone who will do you no wrong or someone who will help you. You will not be shot. lol. Are you more grateful to those who drive by and do you more harm, or are you more grateful to the one who stops, offers you the cell phone call and offers you a ride to the nearest garage and buys you a hot chocolate and dry clothes. lol.

artsylady · November 21, 2004

SS:

ChadB: #1 as far as I know, no culture ever ate other people as a source of food. I am pretty sure cannablism was practiced by various cultures as a ritual. They would eat certain parts of a vanquished foe to gain strength over their enemies. I don't think it's ok for people to engage in this practice but then again I'm not part of their culture and it is not my place (nor yours) to go to them and impose my belief on them. Suppose they thought that eating peas was the most horrible thing imaginable, you wouldn't think to kindly of them coming to you and telling you what a disgusting person you are.

So you believe that for them, it's okay to kill.

In some parts of the world, it's okay to molest children. In some parts, it's okay to let baby girls die. In other places in history, it would have been perfectly okay to murder. There are, or were, no laws surrounding these things.

I posed the question to Undecided Frog, so I'll pose it to you. Is there anything that is just plain 'wrong'. Wrong, across the board, for everyone at every time in history in every geographical location. Is there anything you could say to everyone on earth and feel just and right in 'imposing' this law because it is simply a just and good one? example...... Thou shalt not........???

As for your bet, you would lose that one because I believe that murder is wrong. I'm pretty sure that just about every society on the planet frowns on "murder".

Well, I'm sure that in places in history there were just no laws saying that you couldn't murder. Now if the law 'thou shalt not murder' was not in place, then how can it be wrong? If you believe in evolution, animal species kill each other all of the time? If you beleive in evolution, then why does human law superceed what happens in the animal kingdom - ie, survival of the fittest? If it's wrong, as an non-believer (if you are one) I think you'll have a hard time explaining this.

Artsylady: now that you've changed the parameters of your question we have a choice between not being helped or being helped... I'll take the "being helped". Of course now the question has nothing to do with good or evil.

Well thank you SS. It sounds like the answer to you is obvious, which it should be.

artsylady · November 21, 2004

You claim I have a chip on my shoulder?

I didn't 'claim' that at all. I asked that. I asked because it seems preposterous that you would be more grateful to someone who didn't shoot you than to someone who went out of their way to help you. I think you misunderstood my question from the beginning, but that's okay. I asked it again.

I do not believe that the laws that we live under in the USA is any gods' laws. Remember, I do not believe in any god/s. The laws are all man-made and man-interpreted, and man-policed. However, you are free to believe they came from your god.

Well, you corrected me earlier to say that the laws governing the USA were not Christian, they were Judeo Christian...

So now you're saying the laws of the USA are NOT based on Judeo Christian law? I think you'll have a hard time proving that.

Well of course there are some who say they do not beleive in anything at all. Yet those who say this seem to not be able to live contendedly in that belief. They have to come to places where Christians congregate. That shows to me a discontentment in your spirit, further solidifying my belief that humans are spiritual beings

Thank you for your responses. It has been indeed very illuminating. I see from your reponse above and the implications and arguments you bring to me when no argument was asked for, as an example of this christian behaviour you try to explain.

I have no idea what you mean here. Would you like to explain further? It DOES seem that a lot of athiests are discontented in their spirit. Am I not allowed to say this? What is unChristian about saying this? Does this insult you? How?

Is is standard practice to denigrate someone's disbelief by terming it as "some who say they do not believe in god"? I wonder that atheists do not term christians as "some who say they believe in god." It is irritating, and a common tactic used in ad hominem attacks.

I think you are being defensive, but that's okay. And if you want to refer to me as someone who says they beleive in God, I have no problem with that.

I have already explained the reason why I am here. It is not because I am discontented. But you are free to believe as you wish, no matter how far it may be from truth.

Yes, I know why you say you are here. You say you are actively seeking answers. It seems to me that you are trying to deny anything that might sound like an answer.

I've asked twice now for your list of pros for Christianity that you've gathered so far. If you were actively seeking answers, I'd think you'd have a proverbial 'weigh scale', where you are weighing the options. You might have "God's laws being good ones" on the pro side of the scale. You might have 500 peices of archaological evidence on this side. You might have prophesies that have come to pass on that side of the scale.

Or you might be saying "Wow, 500 peices of archaeology? That's interesting. What are they.

I asked if you also argued with Buddhists and Muslims or just Christians. You referred me to a website that debated all of these religions, yet I see you mostly on the Christian and athiest threads. One question posed to a pagan. And recently, only when I went onto the Muslim thread, you showed up there. And even on the Muslim thread, you mentioned nothing of the Muslim religion at all. You again attacked Christianity, which is quite ironic.

(You gave me two sites. The other one I can't get onto.)

I have a feeling that you just wish to dismiss arguments or points for Christianity. Maybe i'm all wrong on that, but that's the way it seems right now. I don't know if you really beleive you are open or not, but it sure seems you want to dismiss each and every point for Christianity as quickly as you're able.

artsylady · November 21, 2004

2) From a chinese perspective, I would probably say it depends on what the foreigner did to deserve killing. Were they trying to spread unholy doctrine? Are they a threat to our culture?

Well, if it were true Christianity, they'd be threatening the culture with forgiveness, helping the poor and things of that nature and offering hope for eternal life. Does it matter what kind of doctrine they were spreading?

After you have chosen, please answer this for me:

In the Ottoman Empire many ages ago during the crusades and in the name of their god, Christians killed many muslims in their own land in an attempt to capture Jerusalem. Do you find this 'right' or 'moral'?

No I don't find it right or moral in any way shape or form. Nor do I find it 'Christian'.

Do you find it right or moral? Maybe you think it would be moral if they believed the muslims were 'trying to spreak unholy doctrine or being a threat to their culture"?

artsylady · November 21, 2004

I just love this. Found it on another board. Author unknown.