Trading in the house of the Lord ?

[Guest idied2]

In summary , please don't deceive yourself. None of God's people in Scripture made merchandise out of His teachings, prophesies or messages . I hope this whole issue can be truly examined and tested for what it is. Please pray about these things.

In His grace,

G. Thomas Windsor

<www.upwardcall.net>

Amen Thomas

Here is another scripture that states who the merchandisers are and what will happen to them if they don't repent.

Ezekiel 28:

12 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.

18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." ' "

In CHRIST JESUS

[tomwindsor]

In summary , please don't deceive yourself. None of God's people in Scripture made merchandise out of His teachings, prophesies or messages . I hope this whole issue can be truly examined and tested for what it is. Please pray about these things.

In His grace,

G. Thomas Windsor

<www.upwardcall.net>

Amen Thomas

Here is another scripture that states who the merchandisers are and what will happen to them if they don't repent.

Ezekiel 28:

12 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.

18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." ' "

In CHRIST JESUS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen ,

It is also written " Her priests teach for a price and her profits tell fortunes for money , Yet they lean upon the Lord and say , "Is not the Lord among us ?" No disaster will come upon us "... (MIC 3:11)

Did not these things happened as warnings for us ?

Edited November 12, 2004 by tomwindsor

[shammah]

Greetings; good topic:

The church started out in houses and communities of believers sharing their gifts, and helping those in need. When the church got too big for a meeting place, and or, too many people to minister to each other; new churches were formed!

Extra large churches were formed for the sake of building kingdoms, by the merchandisers, who not only fleeced the sheep ,but didn't let them read the word, feeding them what ever profited them!

Even today the peoples bibles are dusty, and seldom used; they'd rather someone teach them every new concept, or trend, which is almost always very loosely based on the bible!

The church were I work, is very big, and the pastor has "Power Lunch's" with the business leaders of the community; to teach them how to make their businesses more successful! Thats the key, the best and most famous people in religion are that way, because it's a business!

The house church didn't need to ask ,or beg, or merchandise, people out of agape love they shared, and took care of one another, and if one church needed help another would hear of it and send money, labor or what ever!

But the times have changed and a new believer must find a church and or a group of true believers, and seek the Lord in your community!

Which in our day, and corrupt age, means if you truly have a message from the Holy Spirit, teachings, songs, or what ever! I believe you can say that" we are only able to operate by your gifts, but if you need the message, and can afford to help, we will send it out", but please help with postage if you can.

Then if your message is from God and He wants it out there it will succeed, though some will take advantage, but that is between them and God!

But it is my opinion that the preaching of dying to yourself and putting God first in all your mind, thoughts and actions, is a very unpopular message !

To really serve God, to live and be used by Him you must totally die to serving you own desires, and going your own way; otherwise God can never depend on using you!

This was taught in the early church, but if taught today and required to be followed by true believers, the church would be very small! In fact we would be back to house churches, because the narrow way of the cross was never sweet , easy, or popular!

I believe when the great falling away( which is upon us) is at it's fulness, people who believe in the narrow way, and don't compromise with the one world religion, will go back to house churches, like they do in China!

Many people who are poor and needy now, are rich in the Lord, and many who are rich now, are poor blind and naked! Many who are first now will be last, and last first; because God looks on the heart! The heart is purified by enduring, suffering, and needing to seek God daily: those who have all they need, have little use for God ,other than a feel good Sunday!

A few scriptures for our rich religious business men to consider!

1 Tim.6:5-19;

5And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a [3] source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw.

6[And it is, indeed, a source of immense profit, for] godliness accompanied with contentment (that contentment which is a sense of [4] inward sufficiency) is great and abundant gain.

7For we brought nothing into the world, and obviously we cannot take anything out of the world;

8But if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content (satisfied).

9But those who crave to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and into many foolish (useless, godless) and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction and miserable perishing.

10For the love of money is a root of all evils; it is through this craving that some have been led astray and have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many [5] acute [mental] pangs.

11But as for you, O man of God, flee from all these things; aim at and pursue righteousness (right standing with God and true goodness), godliness (which is the loving fear of God and being Christlike), faith, love, steadfastness (patience), and gentleness of heart.

12Fight the good fight of the faith; lay hold of the eternal life to which you were summoned and [for which] you confessed the good confession [of faith] before many witnesses.

13In the presence of God, Who preserves alive all living things, and of Christ Jesus, Who in His testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I [solemnly] charge you

14To keep all His precepts unsullied and flawless, irreproachable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Anointed One),

15Which [appearing] will be shown forth in His own proper time by the blessed, only Sovereign (Ruler), the King of kings and the Lord of lords,

16Who alone has immortality [in the sense of exemption from every kind of death] and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see. Unto Him be honor and everlasting power and dominion. Amen (so be it).

17As for the rich in this world, charge them not to be proud and arrogant and contemptuous of others, nor to set their hopes on uncertain riches, but on God, Who richly and ceaselessly provides us with everything for [our] enjoyment.

18[Charge them] to do good, to be rich in good works, to be liberal and generous of heart, ready to share [with others],

19In this way laying up for themselves [the riches that endure forever as] a good foundation for the future, so that they may grasp that which is life indeed.

James.1:9-10;

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

James.2:5-6;

5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats.

Matt.19:21-24;

21Jesus answered him, If you would be perfect [that is, [5] have that spiritual maturity which accompanies self-sacrificing character], go and sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven; and come, [6] be My disciple [side with My party and follow Me].

22But when the young man heard this, he went away sad (grieved and in much distress), for he had great possessions.

23And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you, it will be difficult for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven.

24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven.

2 Cor.8:9-15; (THIS IS THE KEY TO THE CHRISTIAN FAMILY)

9For you are becoming progressively acquainted with and recognizing more strongly and clearly the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (His kindness, His gracious generosity, His undeserved favor and spiritual blessing), [in] that though He was [so very] rich, yet for your sakes He became [so very] poor, in order that by His poverty you might become enriched (abundantly supplied).

10[it is then] my counsel and my opinion in this matter that I give [you when I say]: It is profitable and fitting for you [now to complete the enterprise] which more than a year ago you not only began, but were the first to wish to do anything [about contributions for the relief of the saints at Jerusalem].

11So now finish doing it, that your [enthusiastic] readiness in desiring it may be equalled by your completion of it according to your ability and means.

12For if the [eager] readiness to give is there, then it is acceptable and welcomed in proportion to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.

13For it is not [intended] that other people be eased and relieved [of their responsibility] and you be burdened and suffer [unfairly],

14But to have equality [share and share alike], your surplus over necessity at the present time going to meet their want and to equalize the difference created by it, so that [at some other time] their surplus in turn may be given to supply your want. Thus there may be equality,

15As it is written, He who gathered much had nothing over, and he who gathered little did not lack.

Zech.11:4-5;

4Thus says the Lord my God: Shepherd the flock [destined] for slaughter,

5Whose buyers or possessors slay them and hold themselves not guilty; and they who sell them say, Blessed be the Lord, for I have become rich! And their own shepherds neither pity nor spare them [from the wolves].

Ezek.34:9-12;

9Therefore, O you [spiritual] shepherds, hear the word of the Lord:

10Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My sheep at their hand and cause them to cease feeding the sheep, neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more. I will rescue My sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.

11For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I Myself, will search for My sheep and will seek them out.

12As a shepherd seeks out his sheep in the day that he is among his flock that are scattered, so will I seek out My sheep; and I will rescue them out of all places where they have been scattered in the day of clouds and thick darkness.

These are the days of the great falling away from the true word of God; and a wide path has been made called christianity; but it is a narrow path, and a crucified life that a true Christian must follow! Pick up your cross and follow Him in obedience.

This is my prayer : that you prosper in the Spirit, and if you have food and shelter, know that the Lord knows your needs, and that you need Him more in times of lack, or distress! He Loves you !

Agape in Christ; Ephraim.

Edited November 13, 2004 by shammah

[Guest He's taking names]

my church sells things..cd's, tapes, books, etc in the foyer...

the profits from these sales go towards building the House of God here in london. London needs this house (trust me) and the money is being spent wisely..with God's plans in mind!!! I see no problem with this. No one is forcing anyone to buy these things and we have give-aways all the time for people who can't afford them! If you can afford to buy them and want to then great! you can have something you want (a worship cd or something) AND know you are helping to build the house of God!!! how great is that!

Our pastors are NOT raking in the money for themselves..all the finances are spoken about and we (the congregation) all know where the money is being spent. No one is forced into spending.

If the profit is for profit's sake then i agree...not good...but if the profits are helping build a house where we're seeing people saved every week, where the congregation are enthusiastic and alive for Jesus Christ!!!!, where things are happening to move the church into the next level and bring God into more and more people's lives....then I don't think Jesus is frowning on it.

in His love,

Simon

[tomwindsor]

my church sells things..cd's, tapes, books, etc in the foyer...

the profits from these sales go towards building the House of God here in london. London needs this house (trust me) and the money is being spent wisely..with God's plans in mind!!! I see no problem with this. No one is forcing anyone to buy these things and we have give-aways all the time for people who can't afford them! If you can afford to buy them and want to then great! you can have something you want (a worship cd or something) AND know you are helping to build the house of God!!! how great is that!

Our pastors are NOT raking in the money for themselves..all the finances are spoken about and we (the congregation) all know where the money is being spent. No one is forced into spending.

If the profit is for profit's sake then i agree...not good...but if the profits are helping build a house where we're seeing people saved every week, where the congregation are enthusiastic and alive for Jesus Christ!!!!, where things are happening to move the church into the next level and bring God into more and more people's lives....then I don't think Jesus is frowning on it.

in His love,

Simon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something to consider about "selling for profit"

In the New Testament we find an example of those selling scrolls and it was the pagans ! .

Acts 19 states, " a number of those who practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly . When they calculated the value of the scrolls the total came to 50,000 drachmas"... Parchment was expensive and it was relatively much more costly than todays books . The scrolls circulated in the early church also had incredible eternal value , but were given for free . What a contrast.

The Apostle Paul admonishes us "not to peddle Gods word for profit " A peddler by definition one who goes about selling something. How can it be that most church leaders who otherwise seem to want to do things the "biblical way" ,and "stand on the authority of Gods word " and desire to follow the example of Jesus and the Apostles are now created merchandise out of Gods teachings etc. and thus peddling ?

[stevehut]

1- What

[shammah]

They have built their palaces, and kingdoms, when they should have been helping each other, so no one was in need! But the pastors are more concerned with themselves and what they have built!

I know that this has become our tradition, and not all pastors feel this way , but they have lost the agape of the body sharing it's gifts and wealth for each other first! This is above even misssionaries, because some churches were too poor to give, and others gave more! Especially it is above all buildings, investment, programs, and all merchandising, and moneys distributed!

Rev.3:14-19;

14And to the angel (messenger) of the assembly (church) in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the trusty and faithful and true Witness, the Origin and Beginning and Author of God's creation:(5)

15I know your [record of] works and what you are doing; you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot!

16So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth!

17For you say, I am rich; I have prospered and grown wealthy, and I am in need of nothing; and you do not realize and understand that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.(6)

18Therefore I counsel you to purchase from Me gold refined and tested by fire, that you may be [truly] wealthy, and white clothes to clothe you and to keep the shame of your nudity from being seen, and salve to put on your eyes, that you may see.

19Those whom I [dearly and tenderly] love, I tell their faults and convict and convince and reprove and chasten [i discipline and instruct them]. So be enthusiastic and in earnest and burning with zeal and repent [changing your mind and attitude].(7)

Phil.3:18,19;

18For there are many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, who walk (live) as enemies of the cross of Christ (the Anointed One).

19They are doomed and their [4] fate is eternal misery (perdition); their god is their stomach (their appetites, their sensuality) and they glory in their shame, [5] siding with earthly things and being of their party.

1 Peter 5

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

Ezekiel 34

1AND THE word of the Lord came to me, saying,

2Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them, even to the [spiritual] shepherds, Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the [spiritual] shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the sheep?

3You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you kill the fatlings, but you do not feed the sheep.

4The diseased and weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the hurt and crippled you have not bandaged, those gone astray you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought to find, but with force and hardhearted harshness you have ruled them!

7Therefore, you [spiritual] shepherds, hear the word of the Lord:

8As I live, says the Lord God, surely because My sheep became a prey, and My sheep became food for every beast of the field because there was no shepherd--neither did My shepherds search for My sheep, but the shepherds fed themselves and fed not My sheep--

9Therefore, O you [spiritual] shepherds, hear the word of the Lord:

10Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My sheep at their hand and cause them to cease feeding the sheep, neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more. I will rescue My sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.

11For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I, I Myself, will search for My sheep and will seek them out.

12As a shepherd seeks out his sheep in the day that he is among his flock that are scattered, so will I seek out My sheep; and I will rescue them out of all places where they have been scattered in the day of clouds and thick darkness.

18Is it too little for you that you feed on the best pasture, but you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pasture? And to have drunk of the waters clarified by subsiding, but you must foul the rest of the water with your feet?

19And My flock, must they feed on what your feet have trodden and drink what your feet have fouled?

20Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: Behold, I, I Myself, will judge between fat sheep and impoverished sheep, or fat goats and lean goats.

21Because you push with side and with shoulder and thrust with your horns all those that have become weak and diseased, till you have scattered them abroad,

22Therefore will I rescue My flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep.

23And I will raise up over them one Shepherd and He shall feed them, even My Servant [1] David; He shall feed them and He shall be their Shepherd.(3)

24And I the Lord will be their God and My Servant David a Prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

We are clearly living in the last days, and the church does not operate as intended; and does not know the way of the cross , or sharing with all the body in all things !

I do not blame some of them because they believe this traditions, and denominations, contains the way of the cross,and all the truth contained in the word; but they are Laodecia; whether they recognize it or not, and despite all good intentions!

Those who die to themselves and partake in Christ's suffering daily see the churches as preaching tradition, and for gain, not the narrow way , which is an offense to them!

But even more so the world see's these greedy for filthy lucre, snobby, and partaking of the same attitudes and sins, seeing the church as hypocrites, as they mostly are, shaming the word, and cross of Christ!

With sorrow I write this, because the joy and blessings of Christ abound, but there is more, and the body needs the truth!

Agape in Christ; Ephraim.

Edited November 21, 2004 by shammah

[tomwindsor]

my church sells things..cd's, tapes, books, etc in the foyer...

the profits from these sales go towards building the House of God here in london. London needs this house (trust me) and the money is being spent wisely..with God's plans in mind!!! I see no problem with this. No one is forcing anyone to buy these things and we have give-aways all the time for people who can't afford them! If you can afford to buy them and want to then great! you can have something you want (a worship cd or something) AND know you are helping to build the house of God!!! how great is that!

Our pastors are NOT raking in the money for themselves..all the finances are spoken about and we (the congregation) all know where the money is being spent. No one is forced into spending.

If the profit is for profit's sake then i agree...not good...but if the profits are helping build a house where we're seeing people saved every week, where the congregation are enthusiastic and alive for Jesus Christ!!!!, where things are happening to move the church into the next level and bring God into more and more people's lives....then I don't think Jesus is frowning on it.

in His love,

Simon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something to consider about "selling for profit"

In the New Testament we find an example of those selling scrolls and it was the pagans ! .

Acts 19 states, " a number of those who practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly . When they calculated the value of the scrolls the total came to 50,000 drachmas"... Parchment was expensive and it was relatively much more costly than todays books . The scrolls circulated in the early church also had incredible eternal value , but were given for free . What a contrast.

The Apostle Paul admonishes us "not to peddle Gods word for profit " A peddler by definition one who goes about selling something. How can it be that most church leaders who otherwise seem to want to do things the "biblical way" ,and "stand on the authority of Gods word " and desire to follow the example of Jesus and the Apostles are now created merchandise out of Gods teachings etc. and thus peddling ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some on this forum ( yourself included ) have said that it was the WAY the sellers were merchandising that Jesus was coming against , but the Scriptures point to much more than that .

" And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple (Mt.21,11)

...." and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple.(MK 11,16)

Note it also includes buyers ! Jesus contrasted His Fathers House ( of prayer ) with a house of trade (Jn2 ,Lk19)

NOT a house of fair trade vs robbery . The foundational issue was trade itself in the Temple .

Also as noted before, In the N.T. it was the Pagans that were selling thier scrolls (Acts 19) , not the Apostles .

We can't always go by what is practicle (...this brings in more funds )or pragmatic (...churches couldn't survive without merchandising etc.,which is false ) , but what is God the Fathers will .

Please consider,

Tom