The Fifth Trumpet - Jerusalem's Seige

[firestormx]

So, after seeing that God often ministers to humanity through angels, it should not be a far stretch for me to say that the destroyer that killed Egypts firstborn was an angel of the Lord. That explains why God said He would destroy Egypts firstborn and then, in the same passage, assign that duty to the destoyer. And Apollyon in Greek means the destroyer.

Thank you for the explaination. I understand better where you are coming from. Back to the orignal post. The 5th trumpet is not just directed at Israel, but the world. So, how did you come to the conclusion that it was fulfilled already? During the siege it was just those in jerusalem not the whole world, that suffered. Fullfilling what Jesus said when he spoke, " now there shall not be one stone left upon another, because you knew not the time of your visitation." So how was the 5th trumpet fulfilled?

[Bluefinger]

So, after seeing that God often ministers to humanity through angels, it should not be a far stretch for me to say that the destroyer that killed Egypts firstborn was an angel of the Lord. That explains why God said He would destroy Egypts firstborn and then, in the same passage, assign that duty to the destoyer. And Apollyon in Greek means the destroyer.

Thank you for the explaination. I understand better where you are coming from. Back to the orignal post. The 5th trumpet is not just directed at Israel, but the world. So, how did you come to the conclusion that it was fulfilled already? During the siege it was just those in jerusalem not the whole world, that suffered. Fullfilling what Jesus said when he spoke, " now there shall not be one stone left upon another, because you knew not the time of your visitation." So how was the 5th trumpet fulfilled?

Thanks for the response. I am grateful that you are reading all of my explanation. I've experienced it several times when people zoom in on something they skimmed upon and I've had to repeat myself several times just to find out they didn't care for what I had to say.

To answer yor question, I don't think the entire earth was meant. I'm led to believe that the trumpets were announcements that the King had sent His troops to destroy the murderers of His servants and their city Jerusalem. I cannot, by good conscience, believe that Revelation has so little to say abiut this monumentous and catastrophic event in Covenantal History. The earth and sea, in the trumpets, is talking about the political territory of Judea, to include Galilee. It is the most sensible interpretation and follows seemlessly with the parables of Jesus.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Matthew 24:15-21 KJV)

If Jerusalem's destruction was to be the most terrible tribulation ever, you'd figure that John would have said more about it. My logic says that Revelation encoded the prophecy of Jerusalem's destruction in parables like Christ typically did in the Gospel narratives to prevent the Jews from harassing the Jewish converts to Christianity that had fled Jerusalem.

Jesus had warned them several times to not listen to false prophets and false messiahs because they would lie to garnish support for the war in Jerusalem. This destruction was so severe that Jesus needed to protect His disciples through several warnings. Those that fled Gischala on the Sabbath were slain when they were caught. Those mothers in Jerusalem that were trapped in Jerusalem after the Passover seige even cooked their children and ate them, as shown in one case by Josephus.

The Fifth Trumpet is Christ's warning not to go back to Jerusalem for the Passiver because the destroyer would not pass over the Jews there.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:26 KJV)

We already know that Daniel is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 CE. As shown in Matthew 21:43-45, Jesus made is clear that the kingdom of God would be taken away from the Jewish religious leaders (and the Jews that followed them) and would be given to those producing fruits (the elect and the Gentile converts.) This was the mystery that was hidden from the Jews and was encoded in Revelation.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Bluefinger

[firestormx]

We already know that Daniel is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 CE. As shown in Matthew 21:43-45, Jesus made is clear that the kingdom of God would be taken away from the Jewish religious leaders (and the Jews that followed them) and would be given to those producing fruits (the elect and the Gentile converts.) This was the mystery that was hidden from the Jews and was encoded in Revelation.

I am going to have to disagree with you. I believe the 7 seals, trumpets and bowels are yet to come. They are future. Would you mind going into some detail and explaining how not just the 5th trumpet, but all the trumpets have been fullfilled? Also , how much of revelation do you believe has already happened? Thank You

[Bluefinger]

We already know that Daniel is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 CE. As shown in Matthew 21:43-45, Jesus made is clear that the kingdom of God would be taken away from the Jewish religious leaders (and the Jews that followed them) and would be given to those producing fruits (the elect and the Gentile converts.) This was the mystery that was hidden from the Jews and was encoded in Revelation.

I am going to have to disagree with you. I believe the 7 seals, trumpets and bowels are yet to come. They are future. Would you mind going into some detail and explaining how not just the 5th trumpet, but all the trumpets have been fullfilled? Also , how much of revelation do you believe has already happened? Thank You

Sure. I will start with the seals first because they are connected. I want to point out ahead of time that I will stop after the sixth trumpet, since that is where Revelation stops for a bit.

In Matthew 24, Jesus tells His disciples that the temple was going to be destroyed. Had this been the only time Jesus said such a thing, it would seem extraordinarily out of place. But it wasn't. When asked about when it would occur and what would be the sign of His coming and of the close of the age, Jesus warned them not to be misled. This wasn't a warning about false Christians or heretics, or even the antichrist. In context to the original discussion, this was about the temple's destruction. Jesus warned His disciples, whom were Israelites, not to follow the Jewish Cause.

He started out by saying that His disciples would hear of wars and rumors of wars. Then nation would rise against nation and kingdom would rise against kingdom. He also said there would be famines, earthquakes, and pestilences in various places (Luke 21:11.) Then the Jews would hand His disciples over to be persecuted and tried in the synagogues. Keep in mind that this was all something that the disciples that listened to Jesus speak would see in their lifetimes (Matthew 24:34.) Then when they saw the abomination of desolation standing in the sanctuary, or when they saw the high priesthood thrown down and the temple made haven for murderers; that they should flee Judea and not enter back in. For then would be the worst tribulation the Jews had ever undergone.

Now that I covered that, I want to answer your question about the seals and trumpets. After Jesus resurrected, but before He ascended to God and to the throne, He told His disciples that all authority in heaven and on earth had been given to Him. We see this in dramatic imagery in Revelation chapter 5, when the Lamb goes to the throne and takes the sealed scroll from the Father's hand. Then Jesus begins opening the seals. I will reference from this point on everything that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that we've covered so far.

First seal: Rider on white horse given a bow and crown, told to conquer. "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." (Matthew 24:6 KJV) Likely, this was the Roman Empire expanding in conquest during the reign of Claudius.

Second seal: Rider on red horse that took peace from the earth, causing men to slay one another. "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom..." (Matthew 24:7a KJV) Uprisings, possibly like those in Jerusalem over apathetic and cruel procurators.

Third seal: Rider on the black horse causing a day's wages for one meal; or famine. "...and there shall be famines..." (Matthew 24:7b KJV)

Fourth seal: Rider named death on a pale horse with the grave following behind them, allowed to kill off a fourth of mankind. "...and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." (Matthew 24:7c, 8 KJV)

Fifth seal: Martyrs and those slain (by Jerusalem, IMO) are told to wait until the number of there brethren are complete. ""Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another." (Matthew 24:9, 10 ESV) Shortly before the Jewish War, both the Jews and Romans persecuted the Christians by a greater intensity than what occurred after Stephan's martyrdom. Paul even wrote of being betrayed by those he thought were brothers, saying they did him great harm. It would turn out to look like the Jewish Nation was tipping over and was about to fall and break.

Sixth seal: There is a huge earthquake, the sun turns black, the full moon becomes like blood, and the stars fall from the sky like when a fig tree casts off it's untimely figs when shaken by a strong wind. The sky would also vanish like a scroll being rolled up. Many great people would hide themselves in the caves and mountains, saying to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb..."

"But turning to them Jesus said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, "Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!" Then they will begin to say to the mountains, "Fall on us," and to the hills, "Cover us." (Luke 23:28-30 ESV) Here Jesus is talking about Jerusalem's destruction. Notice what that generation says..."Fall on us..."

Isaiah 34 covers the stars falling from the sky and the sky being rolled up like a scroll, particularly toward Edom (Idumea.) Joel 2 covers the sun turning black and the moon becoming blood. ""And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." (Joel 2:28-32 ESV)

I believe that Joel 2:28-32 covers the crux of these events. On Pentecost, the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and begin making disciples in Judea. They are persecuted and flee Judea and reside among the Gentiles, where they introduce the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. A minority of Jews embrace the Gospel while a great multitude of Gentiles embrace it. Tensions rise in Judea over hateful procurators, sparking talks of revolts. The Jews send out propaganda and messengers to rally support for the Jewish Revolt, saying that God is on their side. The disciples of Christ won't follow them, so the Jews persecute them. They may have even sparked rumors that caused the Christians to be blamed for the fire in Rome (IMO.) Then the Jewish uprising begins. Those that called on Jesus name escaped. Those that murdered Him or followed His murders did not.

"And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak." (Matthew 24:11-18 ESV)

The sixth seal was the commencement of the Jewish revolt. When Cestius Gallus arrived in Jerusalem to put down the revolt and restore Agrippa to the throne, he surrounded the city. As the residents opened the gate to allow him to put down the revolt, he turned and fled for what seemed no reason at all. This was the disciples sign to flee the city. ""But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luke 21:20-22 ESV) Scripture is very outspoken about this.

Then the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed to protect them from the four winds (the Roman Empire) that were going to destroy Jerusalem. They were sealed by the blood of the Lamb and the power of the Holy Spirit that had originally came down on Pentecost and was passed by the laying on of hands. They were sealed when they fled the city and country. There, they brought the Gospel to all nations. That was the occasion of the great multitude dressed in white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. Just as Jesus said in Matthew 21:42-45, the kingdom of God was being taken away from the Jews and was being given to the Gentiles. As Luke 21:20 suggests, the Times of the Gentiles was about to commence.

Seventh seal: There is silence in heaven for about half an hour. Josephus wrote that, before the rebellion, the there shown a great light in the temple so bright at night that it appeared to be day. That light continued about half an hour. The priests understood this to be a bad omen. At the same festival (Feast of Unleavened Bread), the temple doors flung open on their own accord. The seventh seal introduces the judgments against Judea and Jerusalem.

The first trumpet was the battle of Jotapata, where Josephus was captured. The city was barraged and pelted by hundred pound stones flung from the Roman machines. Some even killed men on contact. When the Romans broken through the walls, they killed about 40,000 men and spared a remnant of women and children. When the Roman camp was done, the place was utterly demolished, burned to the ground.

The second trumpet was the battle of Joppa, where Jewish pirates shipwrecked on the coast fighting a battle against the Romans. Those that didn't die in the shipwrecks were either slain by darts or had killed themselves in the water. On the land, the Romans slew many of the Jews and tossed their corpses into the sea, which Josephus noted turned the sea to blood.

The third trumpet was the result of the battle of Gischala. The Romans sieged the city and were planning to take it when John of Gischala persuaded to hold off combat for Sabbath observation. Vespasian complied and John took those in the city that could flee and fled toward Jerusalem in the middle of the night. Those that were caught were slain. "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." (Matthew 24:20, 21 ESV) When John and his gang arrived at Jerusalem, the city welcomed him as a fellow revolutionary fighting for the Jewish cause. That was not the case. He came in and introduced lies, creating cunning deceptions to oust the high priest, causing the people to set up a high priest who had no clue what the job entailed. That was the abomination of desolation. There was still time to flee.

The fourth trumpet was the civil war that occurred in Jerusalem. All the religious teachers (light bearers) had either fled or died in the civil war. John's gang of murders and Simon's zealots made a pact, praying upon the people for food and gold. Thus, a third of Israel was darkened.

The fifth trumpet was, of course, the great Passover siege, which occurred when Vespasian allowed pilgrims into the city to observe the Passover but would not let them out. That was so he could excite the famine in the city and make it weaker much faster. "And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:19, 22 ESV) Josephus even accounted for one case in which a starving woman cut her infant in half and cooked it.

The sixth trumpet was the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem, and the Jewish people. Titus lead four legions (four angels that commanded a great army that were reserved for Babylon's utter destruction) and the many with them to destroy the city. As Matthew 22:10 shows, God sent His troops to destroy Jerusalem. On earth, it was the Romans. In heaven, it was the 200,000,000 horsement. Approximately 600K to 1.1M Jews died in Jerusalem. By this, Jesus was revealed. The salvation that Jesus promised was confirmed. Destruction had fallen upon those that rejected Him and salvation literally came to those that followed Him. The disciples weren't even considered Jews by the Romans. They were called 'Christians;' or little christs (because they suffered like Christ.) The kingdom had come and was given to those that believed.

That started the times of the Gentiles. Interestingly, Revelation chapter 10 breaks the sequence between the sixth and seventh trumpet to tell John to prophecy again: "And I was told, "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and languages and kings." (Revelation 10:11 ESV) The prophecy of chapter 11 is in regards to Gentiles. It describes how the times of the Gentiles began...with the destruction of Jerusalem.

We are in the Times of the Gentiles. When that age is over and its fullness has come in, Israel's blindness will be lifted and they will call upon The Lord. (Romans 11:25-26)

""On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness." (Zechariah 13:1 ESV)

[firestormx]

We are in the Times of the Gentiles. When that age is over and its fullness has come in, Israel's blindness will be lifted and they will call upon The Lord. (Romans 11:25-26)

""On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness." (Zechariah 13:1 ESV)

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I want to take some time to really go over what you have written and pray over it. It may take me a day or two before I feel comfortable enough to respond. God Bless

Firestormx

Joseph

[Bluefinger]

We are in the Times of the Gentiles. When that age is over and its fullness has come in, Israel's blindness will be lifted and they will call upon The Lord. (Romans 11:25-26)

""On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness." (Zechariah 13:1 ESV)

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I want to take some time to really go over what you have written and pray over it. It may take me a day or two before I feel comfortable enough to respond. God Bless

Firestormx

Joseph

Sounds good. Thanks for taking the time to consider my points and to analyze them. Taje your time and have a good weekend.

Matt

[Bluefinger]

We are in the Times of the Gentiles. When that age is over and its fullness has come in, Israel's blindness will be lifted and they will call upon The Lord. (Romans 11:25-26)

""On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness." (Zechariah 13:1 ESV)

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I want to take some time to really go over what you have written and pray over it. It may take me a day or two before I feel comfortable enough to respond. God Bless

Firestormx

Joseph

Sounds good. Thanks for taking the time to consider my points and to analyze them. Taje your time and have a good weekend.

Matt

I take it that you are a preterist. You have to do some major spiritual gymnastics to make any kind of preterism work, as we see here. Revelation 9 is not hard to understand, and does not fit in with your interpretation of it:

I'm not a preterist. I'm just not a futurist. I am both. I am a historicist. Please read my last response.

Can you explain what the star was which fell in 70 AD? The "star" would have been another angel who's task it was to open the abyss.

Satan. Follow Revelation 12:7-12. After the persecution of the saints and after sending Vespasian to siege Jerusalem, Nero killed himself to appease the senate. Vespasian was replaced by his son Titus so that he could handle affairs in Rome. In heaven, Satan was cast down to the earth and sea. On earth, Nero killed himself. These events put Titus in place to commence the five month siege.

Famine is not a scorpion-like creature that torments people and people eventually die from starvation. Those tormented in Revelation 9 during the 5th trumpet do not die. The text is very specific. And despite your assertions that Abaddon is used many times in the Old Testament, that fact must have been lost on every single interpreter from the Septuagint all the way to today, because the word "Abaddon" is only found once in the entire Bible, here in Revelation 9.

Every single interpreter only used Abaddon as a personal name once. But the Hebrew word itself was used over a hundred times in the OT. English translators used the word destruction in its place. The Roman armies are the scorpion-locusts in that they cause pain by cutting off food and water. The people in the city DID NOT DIE by the sword but laid helpless on the ground as the famine caused them to run out of energy. They begged the seditious to kill them but they refused.

It's not that my views are farfetched. Its just that you are not critical enough of your own. Firestormx has been the only one that has been open-mindes in this discussion so far.

"“carrying off the coverings of their bodies, went out laughing, and tried the points of their swords in their dead bodies; and, in order to prove what metal they were made of they thrust some of those through that still lay alive upon the ground; but for those that entreated them to lend them their right hand and their sword to despatch them, they were too proud to grant their requests, and left them to be consumed by the famine. Now every one of these died with their eyes fixed upon the temple, and left the seditious alive behind them.”

Excerpt From: Josephus, Flavius. “The Wars of the Jews; or the history of the destruction of Jerusalem.” iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBookstore: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=507941944

The scorpion army didn't kill the people. It didn't mean that they wouldn't die. Only when they begged to die were they refused; a showcase of the wickedness of the murderers in Jerusalem.

If you read the text properly, it doesn't say that men won't die. It says that the army wasn't allowed to harm men. For five months, that's exactly how the Romans acted.

[Bluefinger]

I'm not a preterist. I'm just not a futurist. I am both. I am a historicist. Please read my last response.

Historicist is the New Preterism. It is just another term for a partial preterist meant to remove some of the stigma and negative connotation from the term. And it is still not a valid or supportable form of eschatology. We already have clear prototypes as to how prophecy already given and fulfilled was fulfilled, and that was literally, as written.

Those formats are wrong. Otherwise I wouldn't have abandoned those formats. I've tested those theories and they have failed miserably. There is good science and bad science. Good science is skeptical of itself and does not hold onto unsupportable theories and claims. Eschatology should be the same. And your eschatology, if it is indeed a form of futurism, is unsupportable, mainly because 90% of it is speculation. There are not enough critical questions asked. The scholarly work is pitiful as well.

I haven't once heard a futurist ask, "What is the exegesis of not only Revelation and the books of the New Testament, but also of the books of the Old Testament?" I've seen futurists insert their seven-year eschatology into Daniel 9:26-27, when verse 24 clearly establishes that the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years were intended for the Jews and Jerusalem that were fulfilled in the destruction of the Jewish Nation. Christ's parables focused on the destruction of Jerusalem and the handing over of the kingdom to Gentiles several times. But futurists tend to ignore all exegesis and treat the authors like they had no clue about what the prophecies really meant, and that those prophecies were meant for people several thousand years in the future. Those claims ignore the circumstances of God's people for those several thousand years. It's pompous and insulting. And what's worse? Futurists always resort to calling people preterist in effort to shut down the discussion. But I shouldn't be surprised that Latin/Greek based eschatology isn't mindful of Covenantal History.

Not this convoluted preterist method of veiled stuff and re-writing the whole book to make it work. "Oh, I know what it says, but it really means this. And that all happened a long time ago." Yeah.

Veiled and rewriting? You mean like making Daniel out to be talking about the Church when he was talking about the Jews and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24-27? I'm a historicist and take note of my beliefs:

I believe that God has been fulfilling prophecy throughout the history of His covenant people. That means that some prophecies speak about the end of the Jewish Nation. Some prophecies speak about the Times of the Gentiles and the tribulations they would go through. Some prophecies speak about the Fullness of the Gentiles and the salvation of all of Israel, both Jews and Gentiles. And some prophecies speak about the return of our Lord, the resurrection of the dead, and the establishing of His millenial kingdom. All these don't happen in a seven year time. That is a terrible injustice to Scripture and shows a complete ignorance to Christ's parables of the kingdom.

I've gone rounds here and it seems like firestormx is the only one open-minded enough to explore my points with no sense of prejudice or desire to abandon his own views. He is holding it with an open hand, willing to drop it at any time. I am the same with my eschatology. All I know is that futurism cannot hold up to scholarly research or critical analysis and exegesis.

So you can call me a preterist all you want. I'll brush it off.

[firestormx]

I've gone rounds here and it seems like firestormx is the only one open-minded enough to explore my points with no sense of prejudice or desire to abandon his own views. He is holding it with an open hand, willing to drop it at any time. I am the same with my eschatology. All I know is that futurism cannot hold up to scholarly research or critical analysis and exegesis.

First, Thanks for giving me time to consider, pray and take things before God. I think we are both clear we don't agree, yet both understand we don't have a monopoly on God either. There is plenty for us both to learn. I don't think either of us has it all figured out. To my points then.....

I guess I'll start with a question. Have you done a word study on this in the greek, latin and hebrew? The reason I ask is this. In all of revelation when looked at in the greek for example ( greek and latin are a much more specific language than english), When it says the earth, when it talks about the whole earth it is just the greek word for earth. But when it uses the word in greek ( gEs I believe is the word ) meaning land it is always, always in every other place in the new testament when it means land, like the land of Israel, it says the word and then Israel. My point is, if you do a study on the word used in revelation, in the seals and trumpets, that is used for earth, it's very specificly talking about the whole earth. Compare all the usages of the word throughout the entire new testament. There is a clear new testament president set down in how the word is used. The word in many of the seals, has to mean, because of the usage of the word, the whole earth. At no time in history, has these things happened to the whole earth.

Next, at the beginning of revelations, chapter 1 I believe, John says that Christ told him that this was to the 7 churches. The 7 churches were not in all in Isreal, if any. Some I know were in asia, and the modern turkey. So how could this only be about jerusalem and no one or nothing else. He also repeats in the 22 chapter that this is to all the 7 churches throughtout the world, not just Israel and jerusalem.

Also, How can attrribute all this to the destruction of the temple and sacking of Jerusalem (70AD by titus), when revelation is believed to have been written in about 95AD after the destruction in Jerusalem? This is also why there is no church in Jerusalem mentioned in the 7 churches, because at the time of the writing of revelation, the temple and Jerusalem have already been destroyed.

How I proceed from here, greatly depends on your answers to my questions like, if you have done a study on the wording in revelation, the usage of the word earth. If you have, How do you come to the conclusion that it means just Israel, when everything else in the new testament, goes against that being the case?

Firestormx

Joseph

[Bluefinger]

I've gone rounds here and it seems like firestormx is the only one open-minded enough to explore my points with no sense of prejudice or desire to abandon his own views. He is holding it with an open hand, willing to drop it at any time. I am the same with my eschatology. All I know is that futurism cannot hold up to scholarly research or critical analysis and exegesis.

First, Thanks for giving me time to consider, pray and take things before God. I think we are both clear we don't agree, yet both understand we don't have a monopoly on God either. There is plenty for us both to learn. I don't think either of us has it all figured out. To my points then.....

I guess I'll start with a question. Have you done a word study on this in the greek, latin and hebrew? The reason I ask is this. In all of revelation when looked at in the greek for example ( greek and latin are a much more specific language than english), When it says the earth, when it talks about the whole earth it is just the greek word for earth. But when it uses the word in greek ( gEs I believe is the word ) meaning land it is always, always in every other place in the new testament when it means land, like the land of Israel, it says the word and then Israel. My point is, if you do a study on the word used in revelation, in the seals and trumpets, that is used for earth, it's very specificly talking about the whole earth. Compare all the usages of the word throughout the entire new testament. There is a clear new testament president set down in how the word is used. The word in many of the seals, has to mean, because of the usage of the word, the whole earth. At no time in history, has these things happened to the whole earth.

I have done word studies, but not on the words for earth or land. Here's what my Strong's KJV app says for earth mentioned in the Fifth Trumpet:

"Pronunciation

ghay

contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application):--country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world."

My impression is that it could mean both. I suppose it would help us to know why the Fifth Trumpet is blasted. We know that those affected did not repent of their wickedness, but even John Baptist and Jesus called their generation of Jews wicked, perverse, and unrepentant.

Next, at the beginning of revelations, chapter 1 I believe, John says that Christ told him that this was to the 7 churches. The 7 churches were not in all in Isreal, if any. Some I know were in asia, and the modern turkey. So how could this only be about jerusalem and no one or nothing else. He also repeats in the 22 chapter that this is to all the 7 churches throughtout the world, not just Israel and jerusalem.

It is my belief that those that saw the abomination of desolation set up in Jerusalem fled the city an country like Jesus warned then to do. The places they fled to were the seven churches addressed in Rev. 1. Likely, the war in Judea ha already occurred and the Jews in those seven cities were trying to rally support for the Jewish war. Christ warned His disiples not to follow after them. Apparently, some in Ephesus had fallen away and went to Jerusalem. They were warned to repent, lest they lose their church, and thus their inheritance of the kingdom. (Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6)

This message was important so that they would both be spared the destruction their friends and relatives would face and so they could spread the Gospel among the Gentiles, expanding Christ's dominion.

Also, How can attrribute all this to the destruction of the temple and sacking of Jerusalem (70AD by titus), when revelation is believed to have been written in about 95AD after the destruction in Jerusalem? This is also why there is no church in Jerusalem mentioned in the 7 churches, because at the time of the writing of revelation, the temple and Jerusalem have already been destroyed.

As I said, I believe Jerusalem had been abandoned by the disciples. I don't believe Revelation was written in 95 CE because it doesn't make sense how John would be so silent on something so monumental in Covenant history.

One early church father wrote of an account in which John chased down a prodigal up hill. How could he do that at such an old age? Eusebius thought the author was a different John. All Iranaeus said was that it was during Domitian's reign, but I think that account is second or third hand. Nero's middle name was Domitius. Could be in Nero's reign.

How I proceed from here, greatly depends on your answers to my questions like, if you have done a study on the wording in revelation, the usage of the word earth. If you have, How do you come to the conclusion that it means just Israel, when everything else in the new testament, goes against that being the case?

Firestormx

Joseph

I'm of the belief that many eschatologists are starting from a speculative and misinformed position. The disciples were Hebrew Israelites, not Latin or Greek theologians. I look forward to your responses.