I wonder...

[nebula]

By the way, Eco -

I was talking to my SIL about our conversation, and she made a salient suggestion.

Get a hold of the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad and learn how to generate your own wealth with what you have. Eventually, you can generate the money you need to help the poor without being bound to the generosity and donations of others. You can create your own funds to distribute to the poor!

And this method has the added benefit of living as an example to the wealthy - when you live out the principle by which you are telling them to live. This will speak greater volumes and inspire better motivation than debating like this.

[Guest]

Dear Joe. Your quotes are always illuminating, and your knowledge of the Bible is obviously exemplary. Nevertheless, it is sometimes difficult to discern your point. Can you, perhaps, humour this neophyte Christian, and make a note to explain what you think your quotations actually mean?

Thanks, eco.

Amen~!

Just Read The Blue Stuff

And Forget The Black Stuff

And Believe And You Will Do Well

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

~

Jesus

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. Matthew 6:7-13

Or The Byway

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Luke 16:13

And Marxism Is Still Grand Thief

Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's. Deuteronomy 5:21

~

Need Help?

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Pray

and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. John 12:21(c-d)

Read

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

And Believe

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

And Be Blessed Beloved

Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. Isaiah 12:2-3

Love, Joe

[2ndRateMind]

Do you never ask yourself why the scriptures say what they say? Do you never consider the thought processes that may have led Paul to write as he did?

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

Indeed I do. But in my experience, the Holy Spirit works through us, not instead of us.

[2ndRateMind]

I think we have to ask ourselves whether we want to support jobs creating frivolous luxuries, or fundamental necessities. If the money spent on Rolls-Royces was donated to charities, the jobs would not be gone, just shifted into different sectors, like the manufacture of anti-malaria mosquito nets, or HIV-AIDS medications, or sewerage systems. Less glamorous, perhaps, but essentially more moral.

And the thing is, if we do resolve this absolute poverty issue, then the global market-place would be so much bigger, the opportunities for trade so much greater, and the potential for economic well-being for everyone radically transformed. The opportunity is for riches for all, instead of riches confined to a privileged elite.

Best wishes, eco.

Are you looking at this then from a world-wide or global perspective? As in the entire human race? Are you wanting to re-distribute wealth from the developed countries (Europe, N. America, etc.) to the developing countries (everyone else)?

Do you believe it is possible to resolve the absolute poverty issue globally in this life? Or is this something that only will happen with the return of Jesus Christ?

I agree with Nebula that people have to generate their own wealth and not expect hand-outs. Coming from a third world country (developing nation) I know firsthand that aid is not always the best option.

I’ll give you an example. In the northern part of Brazil there was a perceived famine due to a drought. The crop didn’t yield much that year for the local farmers. There was aid brought in from a developed nation. The local workers realized they didn’t have to work but would just receive the free food regardless of their work effort. The problem was only made worst as less work was done and the lack of food increased. Not to mention the aid that was brought in was sold to the population by the corrupt local government instead of handed out freely.

You've heard the Chinese proverb:

“Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.”

From a social-economic standpoint we need to be teaching people how to generate their own income, increase their standard of living, and not depend on aid.

These are my thoughts. Yours?

God bless,

GE

Hello Golden,

Yes, I take a global perspective on this. No, I don't particularly want to take money from one place and dump it somewhere else. I agree with both you and Neb that enterprise and trade are the way out and up for the developing world. One of the charities I support, Deki, does precisely the kind of educational and micro-finance work you allude to, and that is necessary to encourage budding entrepreneurs into a situation where they can work themselves and their families out of poverty and into dignity.

And yes, I firmly believe that it is possible to eradicate absolute poverty not only in this life, but in our lifetimes.

Hasn't Jesus done enough for us already? Must we expect Him to solve all our problems for us? I think the guy deserves a holiday. Let us create a world fit for Him to return to, and not shelve issues for Him to sort out when He does return.

Best wishes, eco.

Edited February 22, 2013 by ecoTramp

[Guest]

Do you never ask yourself why the scriptures say what they say? Do you never consider the thought processes that may have led Paul to write as he did?

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

Indeed I do. But in my experience, the Holy Spirit works through us, not instead of us....

Scriptures (Including Paul's)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

And The Holy Spirit

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Ephesians 6:17

[nebula]

Do you never ask yourself why the scriptures say what they say? Do you never consider the thought processes that may have led Paul to write as he did?

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

Indeed I do. But in my experience, the Holy Spirit works through us, not instead of us.

I'm not sure what you are thinking with your response. In any event, Paul was led by the Holy Spirit in what he wrote.

One of the major conflicts the early Church community had was the old belief that Jews had that redemption was through the Law rather than through the atonement of Jesus' blood. You can read this in Acts how the Jews wanted the Gentiles to become Jews before following their Messiah. The Church council gave directions for how to deal with this. You can read this in Acts 15:1-35 and Galatians 2:1-10.

By the way, in the Galatians passage, what did Paul say about the poor?

In any event, if you truly understood what it meant to be saved through following the Law with all its rules and regulations, you would discover that you could never find redemption and salvation because your every step would be measured against you.

If salvation were found through the Law, then Christ died for nothing.

But if it is your desire to be saved through your works and deeds, then you need to live by God's standard of works and deeds, which is found in Exodus - Deuteronomy. But understand that if you break even one of those laws, you are a lawbreaker. Do you truly want to be put under that yolk of oppression?

[2ndRateMind]

Do you never ask yourself why the scriptures say what they say? Do you never consider the thought processes that may have led Paul to write as he did?

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?

Indeed I do. But in my experience, the Holy Spirit works through us, not instead of us.

I'm not sure what you are thinking with your response. In any event, Paul was led by the Holy Spirit in what he wrote.

I am sure he was. I just think that the Holy Spirit, when it guides us, does just that. But it does not replace us. Rather, it takes all that we know, all that we can, all that we are, and melds it into distilled wisdom. But what it does not do is anticipate the moral progress that new generations will make, and add that into the mix. Or so it seems to me.

Love, eco.

[2ndRateMind]

If salvation were found through the Law, then Christ died for nothing.

But if it is your desire to be saved through your works and deeds, then you need to live by God's standard of works and deeds, which is found in Exodus - Deuteronomy. But understand that if you break even one of those laws, you are a lawbreaker. Do you truly want to be put under that yolk of oppression?

I can see your point. And I do not intend to prosyletise the idea of salvation through either law or works. I have already alluded to the unfair advantage that a system of works would offer the rich. As regards law; well, I am a rebel at heart, and confess a romantic attachment to other rebel souls. From such as these has human progress happened. I cannot believe God will punish them, only that He will reward them duly. So, not works, nor law, nor credulous belief satisfy me as criteria for salvation. I have an alternative suggestion to make, but this is your site, not mine, and I hesitate to express it.

Edited February 22, 2013 by ecoTramp

[nebula]

I am sure he was. I just think that the Holy Spirit, when it guides us, does just that. But it does not replace us. Rather, it takes all that we know, all that we can, all that we are, and melds it into distilled wisdom. But what it does not do is anticipate the moral progress that new generations will make, and add that into the mix. Or so it seems to me.

Love, eco.

Why do you believe the Spirit of God to be an "it"?

In Hebrew, He is actually called "Holy Breath".

And I do not understand how you conceive that the Spirit of God doesn't know the future?

In any event, the words you speak are not what Scripture teaches about Him.

[nebula]

I have an alternative suggestion to make, but this is your site, not mine, and I hesitate to express it.

Well, it's not "my" site, as I don't own it.

As long as you do not violate the TOS, you are free to speak what is on your heart.

But for understanding, alternative theories and theologies to the Gospel can be discussed, just not taught (pushed). So if you wish to discuss such it's up to you. If not, fine. Just know that if you do, you will be caught in a huge debate!