Adam And Eve - Just An Allegory?

[ByFaithAlone]

 

Bary was right to call this silly. It has no point or relation to the arguments. 

 

What is "silly" is to continue to claim that Genesis is allegory when the rest of the Bible proves it is not.  The only reason you cling to this theory is because you belong to a belief system that is more secular than Christian and because you do not wish to accept the fact that Genesis is literal, because if it were, that would challenge your worldview.  Evolution and Christianity are not compatible.

 

And while you are so fond of using the term "priori assumption" in post after post, your entire position rests on a priori assumption that Genesis is allegorical.  But it isn't.  And you refuse to deal with any evidence to the contrary.  Because there is no way to do so. If Genesis is not allegory, then everything else falls apart.

 

 

Firstly, I dont assume Genesis is allegorical. I just have scientific, historical precedent and textual reasons which I believe support the idea.

 

Secondly, you also really took what I was calling silly out of context.

 

Also, you have not supported your claim that Evolution and Christianity are philosophically incompatible.

 

Lastly, accepting evolution as science does not imply a naturalistic worldview. If you think it does, provide evidence. 

 

Thanks. 

[enoob57]

 

 

Hebrews 11:1-13 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.  2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.  4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.  5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.  6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.  7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.  8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.  9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.  10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.  11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.  12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.  13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

 

 

Good for you Cobalt. You can quote Scripture. So can I. However, what I can't do is get inside your head and see what you are trying to say when you quote Scripture. What is the point of quoting this passage?

 

My friend is not The Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit within him wanted to give you this to read... and your response to God's Word

is quite telling to the spirit you are here with us! The Children of God are telling you Genesis is defined by God non-allegorical!

Love, Steven

[ByFaithAlone]

 

 

 

Hebrews 11:1-13 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.  2 This is what the ancients were commended for. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.  4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.  5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.  6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.  7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.  8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.  9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.  10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.  11 By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.  12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.  13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

 

 

Good for you Cobalt. You can quote Scripture. So can I. However, what I can't do is get inside your head and see what you are trying to say when you quote Scripture. What is the point of quoting this passage?

 

 

You may be able to quote scripture.  But I notice that you never actually do.  And when it is shown to you, you don't seem to know what to do with it, or how to interpret it.  That particular portion of scripture is self-evident in regards to this topic.  

 

 

Firstly, I do quote Scripture. I even have Scripture as my signature, but this is irrelevant to the question I asked.  

 

As to me apparently not being able to understand or interpret it properly, this is a rather bold and arrogant claim. Your purpose is obviously not self evident as I asked what you meant by posting this.... Please explain to this poor theistic evolutionist the point of this Scripture which I apparently cannot understand. Thanks.  

[ByFaithAlone]

 

 

 

Bary was right to call this silly. It has no point or relation to the arguments. 

 

What is "silly" is to continue to claim that Genesis is allegory when the rest of the Bible proves it is not.  The only reason you cling to this theory is because you belong to a belief system that is more secular than Christian and because you do not wish to accept the fact that Genesis is literal, because if it were, that would challenge your worldview.  Evolution and Christianity are not compatible.

 

And while you are so fond of using the term "priori assumption" in post after post, your entire position rests on a priori assumption that Genesis is allegorical.  But it isn't.  And you refuse to deal with any evidence to the contrary.  Because there is no way to do so. If Genesis is not allegory, then everything else falls apart.

 

 

Firstly, I dont assume Genesis is allegorical. I just have scientific, historical precedent and textual reasons which I believe support the idea.

 

Secondly, you also really took what I was calling silly out of context.

 

Also, you have not supported your claim that Evolution and Christianity are philosophically incompatible.

 

Lastly, accepting evolution as science does not imply a naturalistic worldview. If you think it does, provide evidence.

 

Thanks. 

 

 

The evidence is the worldly positions you espouse and support that a well-grounded Christian following Christ would not.

 

If you do not "assume" that Genesis is allegorical, then why do you continually argue that it is?  The rest of the Bible does not support that theory, either scientifically, historically, or textually.

 

 

The evidence I was asking for is the evidence that evolution implies metaphysical naturalism. This has yet to be supplied by either yourself or shiloh. You are dodging the request for that particular piece of evidence. 

 

I don't assume it but I argue it because I believe it to be scientifically true, consistent with a historical Christian view of Genesis, textually viable and more philosophically tenable then the YEC view which is in my opinion non-scientific, not consistent with a historical Christian view of Genesis, not textually sound and would make God a deceiver and therefore philosophically untenable. 

[Guest]

I don't know.... At the very worst I can't see how my love for physics in particular is worse than a love for music or sports. At the best I see it as one way I can appreciate God's glory.....

 

~

 

From The Age Of Ten

 

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

 

Physics Was A Great Love Of Mine

 

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

 

Until The Fantasies That Evil Men Interwove Into Science

 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

 

Vexed My Soul With Their Mocking

 

Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Jeremiah 14;14

 

Of The LORD

 

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. Psalms 33:6

 

Jesus

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

Thank God~!

 

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:21

[enoob57]

 

 

Cobalt, I take it that is your statement to peace out of the discussion. Alright.

 

Steven science doesn't *have* to go that way though. It used to be aimed explicitly at studying God's creation and scientists assumed they could do it because God created it to be orderly. That's the sort of approach I have in mind.

I understand but the influence of the structure of science is and can only be one of natural law which brings the real deficiency:

Problematic is that they have made God to be in submission to His creative laws... yet we have The Lord Jesus showing us

God is not! As the influence of science is one of physical reliance it can do little else but elevate the sensual structures to that of all

importance... but God is ending the natural(to be never again)! One does not throw away that which has importance! 

I rejoice with you in Jesus but make sure you look outside of this world to where He is at presently... making sure He Who has

called you to Himself 'IS' the One Who is sitting Here-

Col 3:1-4

3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

NKJV

This embodies my concern for you to have proper focus... not on that which passes away but on Him and where He takes us!

 Love, Steven

 

I don't know, Steven. At the very worst I can't see how my love for physics in particular is worse than a love for music or sports. At the best I see it as one way I can appreciate God's glory (as I mention above).

The Lord warns us to take heed to ourselves when we think we stand- lest we fall! Barry the Word off God is not a suggestion

book but the Way, Truth and Life of all matters concerning The Lord Jesus! When we put it as The Only Guide to God we are

changed into little children as to self regard.... and an unquestionable realization of It's total authority over our lives in practice

and thought...

1 John 2:15-17

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that

is in the world — the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life — is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And

the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

NKJV

it doesn't appear to many that this creative effort God has produced is just one of infinite ways God could have done!  This being

made true by The Son Who came and proclaimed this by miracle and statement-

Luke 18:27

27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

NKJV

Now why this is important in your situation- you are bringing God's Word into submission to the created element when in fact the

reverse is the reality- God has used the created element to point to Him but not encapsulate Him -for that cannot be done-  Rom 1...

 

There are three main reasons Genesis is not allegorical:

1. Context of Who is speaking and to whom is being spoken to...

God is speaking to His Friend Moses explaining the origins of all that is needful to know. We know The Heart of God in this as He

spoke parables to those not chosen by Him but to His chosen (disciples) He spoke plainly... and to the Jews God was giving The

Genesis of their beginnings -His chosen people!

2. Plain sense of hermeneutics- morning and evening a marker we all know by day a 24 hour period....

3. God does  a comparative within His Law giving of Sabbath

Ex 20:8-11

8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath

of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant,

nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and

all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

NKJV

this would be a deceiving comparison by God if Genesis was allegorical and not literal!

 

Love, Steven

 

[Gandalf]

Cobalt, I take it that is your statement to peace out of the discussion. Alright.

 

Steven science doesn't *have* to go that way though. It used to be aimed explicitly at studying God's creation and scientists assumed they could do it because God created it to be orderly. That's the sort of approach I have in mind.

Yes, study of the history of science clearly shows that modern science only emerged because of belief in the Christian God and in His ordered creation of the universe. Science assumes that the universe follows rules and principles and is not subject to whims and fancies from a superior being; our God provides that framework of certainty for science to proceed.

[enoob57]

 

Cobalt, I take it that is your statement to peace out of the discussion. Alright.

 

Steven science doesn't *have* to go that way though. It used to be aimed explicitly at studying God's creation and scientists assumed they could do it because God created it to be orderly. That's the sort of approach I have in mind.

Yes, study of the history of science clearly shows that modern science only emerged because of belief in the Christian God and in His ordered creation of the universe. Science assumes that the universe follows rules and principles and is not subject to whims and fancies from a superior being; our God provides that framework of certainty for science to proceed.

 

Oh and how do you explain the miracles of The Lord? Their purpose was revelatory to the last days and His Church as He fulfills His prophecy of increase of knowledge!

[Guest]

If you cannot understand why that text is there, and what it means, then you need to find out exactly where your faith is at and what it is placed in.  Because just that section of text there disproves what you are attempting to float, and it is just one of many, many scriptures that do exactly the same thing.  Genesis is not allegory.  Never has been, never will be.  If you need to believe in evolution so badly that you will slice and dice scripture to do it, find some other way to rationalize believing it.  Because slicing and dicing Genesis in that particular manner is not possible.

 

 

~

 

Is

 

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

 

Not Possible

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

 

For Spirit Filled Humans

 

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

[enoob57]

As those who read this thread .... there is need of saying this:

God whole purpose in creation was to begin us somewhere in His infinite Self of Glory! The total of Life Concept 'IS' God

and focus must be fully 100% upon Him or finding Him will not be accomplished

Jer 29:11-14
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future

and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and

find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back

from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord,

and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.
NKJV
all that is created both heaven and earth and all that is in this place can be made and idol by putting it before God's Word

and Spirit that teaches The Word to us!

God 'IS' seeking us in this way

John 4:23-24
 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father

is seeking such to worship Him.  24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV
 God's creative beginnings  to communicate to us-His Image- was never the end game but only beginning and to continue

in our search we must leave the created element as beginning and embrace the Spiritual element that requires no bounds

upon Our Glorious God and Creator Jesus The Christ ---- we can only exist in this obedience by Spiritually maintaining

presence of mind-

Col 3:1-7

3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. 5 Therefore put to death your members

which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of

these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you

lived in them.
NKJV

He has spoken to us as friends and told us all things that we need to know to dwell in the place above even here and now!

This is walking in the Spirit when our lives live in a place where our feet are not yet at and our hearts won't return to where

our feet are now...  we have successfully through the power of God's Word had faith installed in our hearts and are made

ready by His Mercy and Grace to Please Him

Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder

of those who diligently seek Him.
NKJV

Do not become wearied by the incessant urging of the flesh to make God less than what He 'IS' by binding Him into our

understanding... we know better by faith and walk-> this cannot be done and in the beauty of smallness of our being His 

increase 'IS' a daily glory in our hearts 'Our Magnificent Father, Son and Holy Spirit' of Eternal Life without bounds...

Love, Steven