Split - Christian Freedom... (Gal. 5) - Topic of Sin

[Guest Butero]

 

I already gave you an example of the difference between a wilful sin and one done through ignorance.  You are describing something that was not pre-planned.  That is not a willful sin.  Let me give another example, based on what you just said.

 

 

1.  A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool.  No thought went into this, and when God brings it to his or her attention, the Christian repents.  This is not a willful sin.  A person doesn't lose their salvation over something like this. 

 

2.  A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool.  After doing so, he plans to get revenge towards this person, and kills them.  This is a pee-meditated, willful sin, and it will cost the offender their salvation. 

 

Both of these things are sins, but they were not both done intentionally.  One is an example of being human.  One is an example of knowing right from wrong, and making a willful choice to do wrong, even knowing how God feels about it.   You may not agree with me, but that is my position, and what I believe the Bible teaches.  I can give many scriptures to back up the fact a person who continues to commit certain sins won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and scripture to show a true Christian doesn't sin. 

 

 

Perhaps it's semantics then? I agree one who is lives in continual, habitual sin... That person may not be saved. Is this what you mean in red?

 

Yet even in the second scenario you mentioned there is God's grace. A murderer may be caught, end up in prison for life or death row, may repent, and may be saved still.

 

John 3:9

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

 

1 John 5:18

We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

 

God bless,

GE

 

I do believe that anyone can repent and be forgiven, regardless of what they have done wrong, assuming they live long enough to repent.  I just don't believe a person can die in the act of committing a wilful sin and remain saved.  I do recognize none of us are good enough to save ourselves.  We all need God's grace. 

 

I think back about something Tinky said.  She said we can't go an hour without committing sin.  I don't believe that to be the case, but I can understand what she means if she is speaking of the kind of sins we all commit without realizing it at the time.  On the other hand, we do not all get tempted, realize one way is right and the other is wrong, and choose the wrong.  We are all faced with clear choices of right and wrong, and there is no reason why we ever have to choose the wrong.  Sinners that have no regard for God do whatever feels good to them at the time, but Christians that fear God don't want to do something they know he won't be pleased with.

[Jayyycuuup]

 

 

 

From the same book of Galatians:  Galatians 5:19-21

 

19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these:  Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21  Envyings, murders, drunkeness, revelings, and such like:  of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

This is absolute proof that those who claim that Christian freedom is the freedom to live lawless are in error.  If that message were true, you could do all these things and still keep your inheritance in the Kingdom of God.  The reason why you are free from the law when you walk in the Spirit, is because the Spirit will lead you to live in a way where you don't violate the law.  You will bear fruit.  The same passage goes on to say...

 

22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23  Meekness, temperance, against such there is no law.

 

If you move back to verse 18, it says...

 

18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, yea re not under the law.

 

This is not complicated, but those who are preaching the false message that Christian freedom means we are ok even if we continue in sin refuse to see.  Nobody needs freedom to sin.  We all had that ability before we got saved.  We need freedom to break the bondgage of sin in our lives. 

You asked if I had anything else to add concerning the passage.  I think I was pretty thorough here.  I also believe that having read your quote concerning how Christians continue to sin, but they are supposedly still righteous in the sight of God shows that I did understand what you were preaching.  I don't agree with that doctrinal viewpoint.  Galatians 5:19-21 says that people that continue in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.  If they were righteous in the sight of God, they would inherit the Kingdom of God. 

 

 

Again I don't hold the view that once a Christian calls on the name of the Lord, repents, accepts Jesus as their Savior & Lord that they can live a 100% sinless life. I'm not talking about habitual sin. Perhaps they get stressed and have the wrong attitude. I'm talking about loosing your temper because of what went on at work that day and taking it out on the ones you love. Or thinking evil thoughts towards a person. And so forth. These things people do on occasion without intending too. Perhaps one screams or simply thinks "You idiot" as a fellow car when they cut you off while speeding, no blinker, with your child in the backseat...

 

Matt. 5:22

But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.

 

Maybe I'm the only one who struggles with such things.

 

God bless,

GE

 

I already gave you an example of the difference between a wilful sin and one done through ignorance.  You are describing something that was not pre-planned.  That is not a wilful sin.  Let me give another example, based on what you just said.

 

1.  A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool.  No thought went into this, and when God brings it to his or her attention, the Christian repents.  This is not a wilful sin.  A person doesn't lose their salvation over something like this. 

 

2.  A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool.  After doing so, he plans to get revenge towards this person, and kills them.  This is a pre-meditated, wilful sin, and it will cost the offender their salvation. 

 

Both of these things are sins, but they were not both done intentionally.  One is an example of being human.  One is an example of knowing right from wrong, and making a wilful choice to do wrong, even knowing how God feels about it.   You may not agree with me, but that is my position, and what I believe the Bible teaches.  I can give many scriptures to back up the fact a person who continues to commit certain sins won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and scripture to show a true Christian doesn't sin. 

 

Butero, you said something very interesting that caught my attention. You gave a depiction between willfully sinning and sinning out of ignorance. Now, my question to you is what is the overall difference and where does one draw the line? The bible says that there are some sin that do not lead to death (1 John 5:17) and furthermore, our sinful lives will always remain until we depart from our flesh (1 John 1:8-10) The apostle Paul, gives a greater and more in-depth understanding of the law of sin and being under it, struggling with it etc. in the book of Romans.

 

I think the problem that GE is having, is that, your saying the grace of God is "removed" once a "willful" sin is endorsed. The biblical concept does say, as you do, that once in Christ we inherit a new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17), and those who are in Him no longer sin (Hebrews 10:26). But again, this dates back to what Paul taught further in Romans. . . .that it is no longer he who sins, but the sin that lives in him. (Romans 7:17-20) Because he is no longer under the law because he is made alive through Christ. (Galatians 2:20)

 

So I think a further discussion of the law and what Paul taught concerning this is in order.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

Yes~!

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

From the same book of Galatians:  Galatians 5:19-21

 

19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these:  Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21  Envyings, murders, drunkeness, revelings, and such like:  of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things, shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

This is absolute proof that those who claim that Christian freedom is the freedom to live lawless are in error.  If that message were true, you could do all these things and still keep your inheritance in the Kingdom of God.  The reason why you are free from the law when you walk in the Spirit, is because the Spirit will lead you to live in a way where you don't violate the law.  You will bear fruit.  The same passage goes on to say...

 

22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23  Meekness, temperance, against such there is no law.

 

If you move back to verse 18, it says...

 

18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, yea re not under the law.

 

This is not complicated, but those who are preaching the false message that Christian freedom means we are ok even if we continue in sin refuse to see.  Nobody needs freedom to sin.  We all had that ability before we got saved.  We need freedom to break the bondgage of sin in our lives. 

You asked if I had anything else to add concerning the passage.  I think I was pretty thorough here.  I also believe that having read your quote concerning how Christians continue to sin, but they are supposedly still righteous in the sight of God shows that I did understand what you were preaching.  I don't agree with that doctrinal viewpoint.  Galatians 5:19-21 says that people that continue in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.  If they were righteous in the sight of God, they would inherit the Kingdom of God. 

 

 

Again I don't hold the view that once a Christian calls on the name of the Lord, repents, accepts Jesus as their Savior & Lord that they can live a 100% sinless life. I'm not talking about habitual sin. Perhaps they get stressed and have the wrong attitude. I'm talking about loosing your temper because of what went on at work that day and taking it out on the ones you love. Or thinking evil thoughts towards a person. And so forth. These things people do on occasion without intending too. Perhaps one screams or simply thinks "You idiot" as a fellow car when they cut you off while speeding, no blinker, with your child in the backseat...

 

Matt. 5:22

But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.

 

Maybe I'm the only one who struggles with such things.

 

God bless,

GE

 

I already gave you an example of the difference between a wilful sin and one done through ignorance.  You are describing something that was not pre-planned.  That is not a wilful sin.  Let me give another example, based on what you just said.

 

1.  A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool.  No thought went into this, and when God brings it to his or her attention, the Christian repents.  This is not a wilful sin.  A person doesn't lose their salvation over something like this. 

 

2.  A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool.  After doing so, he plans to get revenge towards this person, and kills them.  This is a pre-meditated, wilful sin, and it will cost the offender their salvation. 

 

Both of these things are sins, but they were not both done intentionally.  One is an example of being human.  One is an example of knowing right from wrong, and making a wilful choice to do wrong, even knowing how God feels about it.   You may not agree with me, but that is my position, and what I believe the Bible teaches.  I can give many scriptures to back up the fact a person who continues to commit certain sins won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and scripture to show a true Christian doesn't sin. 

 

Butero, you said something very interesting that caught my attention. You gave a depiction between willfully sinning and sinning out of ignorance. Now, my question to you is what is the overall difference and where does one draw the line? The bible says that there are some sin that do not lead to death (1 John 5:17) and furthermore, our sinful lives will always remain until we depart from our flesh (1 John 1:8-10) The apostle Paul, gives a greater and more in-depth understanding of the law of sin and being under it, struggling with it etc. in the book of Romans.

 

I think the problem that GE is having, is that, your saying the grace of God is "removed" once a "willful" sin is endorsed. The biblical concept does say, as you do, that once in Christ we inherit a new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17), and those who are in Him no longer sin (Hebrews 10:26). But again, this dates back to what Paul taught further in Romans. . . .that it is no longer he who sins, but the sin that lives in him. (Romans 7:17-20) Because he is no longer under the law because he is made alive through Christ. (Galatians 2:20)

 

So I think a further discussion of the law and what Paul taught concerning this is in order.

Thoughts?

 

The biggest problem with the comments Paul made is we don't know the specifics of what he was struggling with?  I get upset with myself for getting angry over a stupid thing someone does in traffic, when I get mad and call the person an idiot or something along those lines.  I know I shouldn't lose my temper, and I wind up having to repent for the evil thought or words spoken.  I get frustrated with the weakness in my own flesh.  At the same time, I didn't have time to choose to sin.  This thing occured so fast, it was a reaction.  There have been sometimes where I caught myself and then I was faced with saying something I shouldn't, and that would be a wilful decision. 

 

Something else that is interesting about the passage in Romans is something the Pastor of the church I have been attending said.  He believes Paul was speaking of a struggle he went through before he was sanctified, and that the next chapter describes how things changed after Paul was set free from that struggle.  That is Wesleyan doctrine, and I am not sure exactly how I feel about it, but I do think there is something to the doctrine of sanctification, having experienced it myself. 

 

My personal opinion is that Paul was speaking of the day to day struggles with the flesh we all have, and we do all struggle with something.  At the same time, since the Lord revealed to me that I am not in bondage to sin, and don't have to commit wilful sins when tempted to do so, I have found freedom in the Lord I hadn't experienced in the past.  I don't have to sometimes give in and other times say no.  I can say no to sin everytime.  Even having said all of that, if someone has committed wilful sins, and they still have breath in their body, they still have a chance to repent and make things right.  Then they can do as Jesus told the woman in adultery, "Go and sin no more."  Jesus wouldn't tell her that if it were not possible. 

[GoldenEagle]

Another good perspective on grace

“To be grateful is to recognize the Love of God in everything He has given us - and He has given us everything. Every breath we draw is a gift of His love, every moment of existence is a grace, for it brings with it immense graces from Him.

Gratitude therefore takes nothing for granted, is never unresponsive, is constantly awakening to new wonder and to praise of the goodness of God. For the grateful person knows that God is good, not by hearsay but by experience. And that is what makes all the difference.” - Thomas Merton

[GoldenEagle]

 

I don't think he could have been more wrong.  In fact, for personal, not spiritual reasons, I think his comment comes from a gross faux humility of someone concerned about being approved of.   I do not mean that as a personal attack I'm just trying to clearly describe my thought.

Gross faux humility = false humility. This is an interesting thing to say about someone.

Have you read anything by Timothy Keller? Or heard any of his sermons?

[GoldenEagle]

 

Butero, I think this quote says a lot:

 

“The gospel of justifying faith means that while Christians are, in themselves still sinful and sinning, yet in Christ, in God’s sight, they are accepted and righteous. So we can say that we are more wicked than we ever dared believe, but more loved and accepted in Christ than we ever dared hope — at the very same time. This creates a radical new dynamic for personal growth. It means that the more you see your own flaws and sins, the more precious, electrifying, and amazing God’s grace appears to you. But on the other hand, the more aware you are of God’s grace and acceptance in Christ, the more able you are to drop your denials and self-defenses and admit the true dimensions and character of your sin.” -Timothy Keller

 

The part that is so wrong is "the dynamic for personal growth".  The more apropos quote would be Paul in Phil 3 saying, "I don't look to the sins of my past, but I look to the prize and run the race."  (brad's paraphrase)  What Paul teaches is that the sins of your past (even yesterday) don't matter, getting to the prize... matters.  He teaches to keep trodding along until you get there.  He says those of them who WERE THERE (perfect/mature) should keep the mindset of those who aren't there.  In other words, don't be presumptuous except to presume you aren't there yet.  (doesn't deny people can be there.  Parse the chapter as it's not written not as we want to read it and...)  Paul pushes us to grow to a Spiritual maturity as great as Christ had on earth.  Every bit as big, and mighty as the full of Jesus' own spiritual maturity was.  And most of you will say that's impossible, but Paul didn't think so.  He felt it was expected, the goal to be achieved.  Not a red herring to chase all your life.

 

 

I do agree that past sins don't matter but pressing on towards Christ and eternal life (the prize) matters.

 

Ps. 103:12

As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

 

Is it possible to be perfect or mature in this life? In other words completely without sin. 100%.

Where did Paul say it was possible to be 100% perfect? Curious. I'd like to look up that passage of Scripture.

God bless,

GE