Jayyycuuup

Apart of what is said I 100% agree with. . this- - - > "youth pastor taught less and played more." I attended a youth group for some time, but quit going as we did less faith based stuff and leaned more towards "having fun." I think having fun is great and all, but the main purpose is making a connection in the generation today. A godly connection- reaching our world through the hand of our Redeemer.

You asked if I had anything else to add concerning the passage. I think I was pretty thorough here. I also believe that having read your quote concerning how Christians continue to sin, but they are supposedly still righteous in the sight of God shows that I did understand what you were preaching. I don't agree with that doctrinal viewpoint. Galatians 5:19-21 says that people that continue in sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If they were righteous in the sight of God, they would inherit the Kingdom of God. Again I don't hold the view that once a Christian calls on the name of the Lord, repents, accepts Jesus as their Savior & Lord that they can live a 100% sinless life. I'm not talking about habitual sin. Perhaps they get stressed and have the wrong attitude. I'm talking about loosing your temper because of what went on at work that day and taking it out on the ones you love. Or thinking evil thoughts towards a person. And so forth. These things people do on occasion without intending too. Perhaps one screams or simply thinks "You idiot" as a fellow car when they cut you off while speeding, no blinker, with your child in the backseat... Matt. 5:22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. Maybe I'm the only one who struggles with such things. God bless, GE I already gave you an example of the difference between a wilful sin and one done through ignorance. You are describing something that was not pre-planned. That is not a wilful sin. Let me give another example, based on what you just said. 1. A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool. No thought went into this, and when God brings it to his or her attention, the Christian repents. This is not a wilful sin. A person doesn't lose their salvation over something like this. 2. A person gets angry, and calls someone a fool. After doing so, he plans to get revenge towards this person, and kills them. This is a pre-meditated, wilful sin, and it will cost the offender their salvation. Both of these things are sins, but they were not both done intentionally. One is an example of being human. One is an example of knowing right from wrong, and making a wilful choice to do wrong, even knowing how God feels about it. You may not agree with me, but that is my position, and what I believe the Bible teaches. I can give many scriptures to back up the fact a person who continues to commit certain sins won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, and scripture to show a true Christian doesn't sin. Butero, you said something very interesting that caught my attention. You gave a depiction between willfully sinning and sinning out of ignorance. Now, my question to you is what is the overall difference and where does one draw the line? The bible says that there are some sin that do not lead to death (1 John 5:17) and furthermore, our sinful lives will always remain until we depart from our flesh (1 John 1:8-10) The apostle Paul, gives a greater and more in-depth understanding of the law of sin and being under it, struggling with it etc. in the book of Romans. I think the problem that GE is having, is that, your saying the grace of God is "removed" once a "willful" sin is endorsed. The biblical concept does say, as you do, that once in Christ we inherit a new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17), and those who are in Him no longer sin (Hebrews 10:26). But again, this dates back to what Paul taught further in Romans. . . .that it is no longer he who sins, but the sin that lives in him. (Romans 7:17-20) Because he is no longer under the law because he is made alive through Christ. (Galatians 2:20) So I think a further discussion of the law and what Paul taught concerning this is in order. Thoughts?

I agree with this statement completely. Some examples of this are drinking and tattoos

In reflection to that, who are we to judge another? I think at times, we focus on the parts that WE want changed in someone else, as opposed to looking at the greater work that God is doing. We all undergo sanctification and are being molded into the masterpiece that God has instore for us. Just keep your eyes on Him- believe and cleave to the faith and relationship YOU have with Him, and not what others think that they may or may not see. We fail- God does not. We don't know what lies within a mans heart- God does. Anyone and everyone is called by the Lord- Isiah 1:18 makes this clear as do other scriptures. No matter where we have been, nor gone to- God wants us and yearns for our return!

This "literal war", and "believing" vs "BELIEVING", is what i can understand, my question is on how this can be explained, and i use this just for an example, of say an alcoholic accepting Jesus, yet continually struggling with alcoholism. There are threads i read indicating that if one is truly saved, this person would not be caught in the struggle of alcoholism. Discussions of judging ones "fruit" vs what God can see in our hearts, has me all befuddled. Hopefully this post makes some sense! I think the best explanation for this would be found in Romans, and then again described in 1 Peter. Paul depicts this very thing, being made alive in Christ and being dead to sin. I think what we need to realize is that yes, there are people who are 100% taken away from the sin and the temptation there of. While others, could even struggle with it until the day they die. Why? I believe it is apart of each person having their own "thorn in the side." The struggles bring forth perseverance and steadfast faith- used to glorify the Lord. God works with each person differently and I think this is a big role in the underlining condemnation that we hold against others.

This scripture comes to mind. Romans 5:20-22 & 6:1-2 "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" I wonder what your thoughts concerning the quote is GE? From what I get out of it, it is someone who is living in denial of their sin; not accepting that they are always, no matter how "good" they are, in need of God's grace and sufficiency. But I do think that the beginning of the quote is quite interesting, as I do not know anyone who tries to live morally just in concordance of receiving a blessing. I think God's blessings are more then just "receiving something" tangible. Each day we are blessed, with life, love, food, etc. Maybe I am not understanding the point of the OP? Sure thanks for asking Jacob. The OP to me speaks of trying to DO God's things to earn God's favor. Meaning that as if somehow my good works would positively affect God's reaction to or view of me. I don't view God as someone who's always out to get me. I view Him as my Father. God's grace is freely given to me. My salvation was 100% costly to God through Jesus Christ and 100% free to me. I believe God will give me blessings if He so chooses. However, I also believe God allows trials and tribulations to test my character - ultimately resulting in my good. No matter how much I exemplify good character ultimately I MUST rely on the righteousness of my Creator. No matter how much I avoid sin I MUST rely on the strength of my Savior. I do not trust my goodness but His graciousness. I can never earn God's blessings. But I CAN accept them when He chooses to give them to me. Once I'm saved or born again (terms we love to use) the process doesn't stop - I don't take over again my life again. God through the Holy Spirit is day by day, moment by moment, lesson by lesson molding me to conform to Jesus Christ. Of my own strength I can do nothing. Of my own strength I cannot resist temptation. Of my own strength I cannot overcome. But through Christ we can resist temptation. Through His strength I can overcome! Rom. 8:37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 1 Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Do you see my heart brother? What do you think? 

God bless, GE Yes and Amen. Thank you for the clarification GE. From what I gather, your reapplying Christ, to even us as believers. Because it it ultimately Him who does and wills us to do good things etc. Favor, love and grace- all consist of God's everlasting, unending and freely given things.

This scripture comes to mind. Romans 5:20-22 & 6:1-2 "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" I wonder what your thoughts concerning the quote is GE? From what I get out of it, it is someone who is living in denial of their sin; not accepting that they are always, no matter how "good" they are, in need of God's grace and sufficiency. But I do think that the beginning of the quote is quite interesting, as I do not know anyone who tries to live morally just in concordance of receiving a blessing. I think God's blessings are more then just "receiving something" tangible. Each day we are blessed, with life, love, food, etc. Maybe I am not understanding the point of the OP?

Amen & Amen! What a terrific read! Thank you for sharing it GE! I think there is SO much truth in this article! We tend to forget that it was while we were SINNERS, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8) that the grace of God CANNOT be earned (Ephesians 2:4-9) and can ONLY be received through Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:20-24) An interesting song came on, that I happen to love, while I was reading this. The song is "All I can do(Thank you)" By MIKESCHAIR. (Link to Lyrics: http://www.klove.com/music/artists/mikeschair/songs/all-i-can-do-%28thank-you%29-lyrics.aspx ) And a nice quote to end my post “Grace, then, is grace,–that is to say, it is sovereign, it is free, it is sure, it is unconditional, and it is everlasting.” - Alexander Whyte

David is one of my favorite characters in the Bible to... Why does Job scare you to death? God bless, GE I happen to love and favor both of the books. Job in my opinion, is fantastic.

Great Topic! One of my favorite stories is the Story of David and Goliath. It inspires me because no matter the difficulty, and even though no one is there for you or by your side, it only matters that the Lord is there. For we are surely conquerors through Christ who gives us strength.

The point Allan brings up I think is great. Something I found interesting though, is that in Isaiah, lucifer is notified as the "morning star" but Christ is called the "Morning Star." I wonder if it differentiates like it does with "god" and "God." Being that Satan is the anti-christ, and the Messiah is the Christ, it to me, makes sense. Satan is the "ideal" (for lack of a better word) opposition to Christ- being the opposite of all things Holy and Worthy. Revelations 22:18-19 gives a clear depiction of what will become of those who try to distort the word of God. This plays a large role into those who have itching ears.,

Hello GE, So my assumption is, that your question is mainly around the end of verse 4, "falling from grace?" As far as I understand, grace is a gift, not something to be lost. Either you have it, or you don't- not something that can be removed.

I hope to explain my position a little and explain to you why I have formed such a strong view for seeing the account of Adam and Eve as literal. But before then, I will explain where I think the idealism was brought forth in the first place. We find in the bible, numerous places that an allegorical meaning should be applied. I for one, believe that it is many times misused and not properly accustomed to the featured account itself. For instance, the account of Adam and Eve. Be it allegorical, we would run into many issues that I have briefly described in my post above. (#201) The Apostle Paul emphasizes also on a literal approach concerning Adam and uses a parallel of our current nature. Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned . . .” We then continue into Romans to find this thought furthered. . . . Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who has to come." Here, we understand the aspect of "inherited sin." The last verses of Romans 5, depict the law and how it came about. The allegorical approach raises doubt mainly on the teachings that Paul used describing the redemptive necessity of the Messiah and how the nature was brought forth. This point of interest provides the evidence for what we need, why we are where we are, and the need for a savior. The Genesis account that I briefly described is futuristic, and historic. Adam was the first man created by God and was in a great line of those to typify the Messiah. Adam was a real man who was created to play an integral part in God's eternal plan. Another point of interest is in Genesis 2:22, when God uses a rib (or a side) of Adam to make woman. This typifies the return and purpose of Christ, who like Adam, would have His side pierced for the sake of His bride. As I noted earlier, the Messiah will come from the Seed of the woman that will bruise the head of the serpent. (Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you (serpent) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed (Messiah) ; He will bruise your head, and you (serpent) shall bruise His heel.") I can see where you will urge that an allegorical approach supposes the same claims, but in the process of process of providing evidence to the foundation of Christianity as a whole I think you will run into many problems. . . like the ones I explained earlier- sin, sin nature and the overall importance of needing a savior. My question to you is simple, when ministering to someone, and they ask about what sin is and where it came from, do you not reflect upon the same idealism that Paul taught? That through the actions of one man, came death to all. That through the righteousness and justification of one sinless man, came redemption? I would find it quite difficult to minister to someone without this key component. Thoughts?

To further the discussion. . . . What are your thoughts concerning these three points? 1- The Spirit gives us a new perspective 2- The Spirit gives us a new direction 3- The spirit gives us a new power Along with that, I believe that being born again means we inherit a new nature. Thoughts?

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Rom 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Gal_4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Eph 4:21-24 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: (22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; (23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; (24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: We meet again Nin! Haha Thank you for the scriptures and your response! I am enjoying the diversity of the scriptures, gives a great point of view from every side of the spectrum which is very interesting and encouraging!

I am not ensuring complexity. It is something that most people look over rather than look to the teaching presented. This was simply a "base" or foundation to build from. One of the things I hope to discuss is that there is a component here that I think is often looked over. There is a difference between "believing" and BELIEVING. Sorry Jacob I didn't mean to imply that I thought you was ensuring complexity. Some times in forums and even text messages to family I seem to lead people into thinking I mean something that I don't. I was just giving the most simple and easy reply to others who might not really know. I love what you do here on these forums and enjoy reading the post you make. God Bless and keep doing what you do! Noobie, your responses are so humble and pleasant. I was just making a generalization. I presented this discussion in chat and it took awhile to get to the gist of the discussion. Which seemingly, will occur here as well, which is fine. . . . I was just making a point of my intentions etc. God bless you friend, hope you understand. Thank you also for you compliment! Glad you are here Hope you stick around in this thread!

RIght ncn. As I stated earlier, this is simply a "base" to build from. I was not intending to focus as much on the salvational aspect as I am on the transformational part and the "belief aspect." John 2:23-25 makes the point of interest concerning the "belief" portion. 23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[a] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

Amen Randal, Thank you for your reply and for providing scriptures!

I am not ensuring complexity. It is something that most people look over rather than look to the teaching presented. This was simply a "base" or foundation to build from. One of the things I hope to discuss is that there is a component here that I think is often looked over. There is a difference between "believing" and BELIEVING.

The focus of this topic is mainly Nicodemus question to Christ (found in John 3:4) of how one can become born again? So my question to you is how can one become born again? How does one know that he is born again? What happens when you are born again and what does it mean?

Right. Though I do not find humor in it, it is very thought provoking (Teasing you by the way) God bless you

Hey Dawn, I know how you feel. At times, we can boldly confess our strength in the Lord, but at other times we lose sight of His justice, mercy and overall being Good ALL the Time. You are not alone at all I do encourage you to read the book of Psalms, helps me ALOT- when I have doubts etc. Speaks to me loud and clear. Even though I tend to question, God is not impartial or unfair- Joy surely comes in the morning.

Amen Willamina, great Post- I agree. This song is one of my favorites

Your hypothetical assertation is rather redundant and not conclusive to the cause. Being there is a creator, it opens the door to numerous truths science refuses to admit and signify. The "being" is Jesus Christ- Jehovah Bara - the creator of all. I know this because there is something called "God's imprint" this is present in our lives and the world itself. Such things as miracles that defy science and the grand knowledge, preciseness and intellect overall that it took to design such a complex layered life of scientific laws etc. is like Tinky said, intellectual suicide to conclude that it was by accident. Your inquiry is presenting favoritism, when it simply comes down to an implied truth- because there is but One God of Heaven and Earth. I know that He cares because the proof I need and have is Jesus Christ- He more than proved His faithfulness and existence. The reason for His care is love- God is love and cares for us. He has this part of Himself in each of us- being that we are all designed and made for and in Him- we cannot help but have this necessity (whether you want to agree or not- is also redundant- much rather a conflict of interest) to want to know God. (see here: )