Celebrating Christmas and Easter

[gnomonist]

 

 

 

My actual comment was directed towards torahcalendar, which has numerous errors on their home page. They lack understanding of the biblical setting of the monthly calendar, which they claim to have corrected scientifically.

I have now looked up Dr. Ernest Martin. He is pretty much on the fringe.  

My main argument against 9/11 would be the climate. Very simply, in the Bethlehem area, there is no rain during the summer months. With no rain for 4 months, there would be no grass for the sheep to eat in September, so the shepherds would not be out with the sheep.    

 

 

I don't agree with the torah calendar as to how to start the year, as they use the vernal equinox and I use the ripening of Barley in Israel.  However, for those who are in exile and can't view barley, I can see their point as the astronomical seasons and the ripening of barley are related anyway. In other words, it usually turns out that it's around the equinox anyway. Besides, if one (such as Noah) can't see the barley, he probably did not see the moon either with that cataclysm going on.  As one author pointed out, this was perhaps the origin of 30-day "Prophetic" month since counting in intervals of 30 will definitely mean one is in the next month for sure, and the same intervals of numbers are used in Daniel's prophecies when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light --- but these are times of trouble, not normal circumstances that God expected his people to live in. Thus, those would be acceptable ways to temporarily perpetuate the calendar during crisis.

 

I think there's a lot of people who would disagree with your climate theory -- there's plenty of sources who say that sheep could be out then in September, and even if not grazing to be outside since it's not cold. Also it was a custom to bring them in for the rainy season in December back in Christ's time, or at least not have them out at night abiding in the fields unless shepherds liked 40 degree cold rain falling on them; certainly not a Malibu beach. I'd be more inclined to believe that they were feeding during the daytime when it warmed up a tad, but not at night.

 

I'm just curious what you think is wrong with the torah calendar otherwise?  Please be specific.

 

 

I have never seen sheep eat at night. They are not nocturnal animals, so they sleep during the day. So, yes, sheep graze during the day.

 

Given that the timing of the holidays is based on the readiness of the barley, that is a dependency, which is reported to the Priests. Also, the spotting of the new moon, which again reported to the Priests by a minimum of 2 witnesses. This watching and reporting is important as the Mosaic law is a picture of the coming Messiah.

 

I see no difference between the formula put together by Hillel 2 and some computer calculation. The Rabbinic formula was put in place because of the destruction of the Temple, and has been very accurate for almost 1700 years. But neither is consistent with the biblical method. One is due to 'diaspora' and the other is simply because they dislike the Rabbinical formula, but are actually just using a computer generated formula. That is the main fault. They create a method which isn't biblical, ignoring the bible is written by God, and we must assume God knew what and why, for His purposes. And then they criticize the Rabbis for creating a formula so that the Jewish people who were given the Mosaic law could keep the law as much as possible even in diaspora. At the very least, the Rabbis recognized their very accurate formula as a diaspora only solution, until the Temple was rebuilt and they could follow the biblical method.

 

Now the issue with the vernal equinox, is that the barley is not always ready at that time, plus, and even more important, the actual calendar does drift with 12 months based on a lunar cycle. Just as the Gregorian calendar has a shift which must be adjusted every 4 yours with leap day.

 

During the time of the Temple, until the first fruit wave offering, any new harvest was not to be consumed. If you can imagine, the ripening of the barley for the wave offering was very important to the people, and their stomachs. I am sure the people were watching and waiting for that important progress of the barley. Including that announcement meant when they were to prepare to travel to Jerusalem for Passover. Whenever the law has people focused and watching, it is a clue that this is pointing to something very important. We know Jesus was resurrected on the first fruit wave offering of the barley.     

 

_____________________________________

 

I think we are in full agreement here, i.e. I too, agree that the barley is important unlike the torah calendar that rather use the equinox.  Likewise, the month should commence when the moon is sighted.  However, what I was saying is that the algorithm is good enough that the moon is where the torah calendar says it is, and barring weather conditions, WILL BE seen.  Computers have done an excellent job of simulating lunar motion down to the split second.  That is the actual position of the moon, which is directly related to what is then observed. This is a tough call because it's like hanging a plant from the ceiling in front of a clock and then saying it's not half-past yet because we can't see the hands. Actually Yahweh allows for that kind of call for apparently one day. Or to put it another way, He can delay the feast somewhat with the weather.  But most of the time (and I have done this myself and I'm going to say about 90% of the time) I can predict when the moon will be viewed.  I guess God wants to control the other 10%.  Now, this is the actual position of the moon.  Hold that thought.

 

The thing with Hillel is that's an algorithm of the average lunar motion.  It was created for the Diaspora so that everyone was "on the same page" so-to-speak, and I think that's understandable.  However, it cannot accurately predict the lunar crescent from month-to-month, and unlike the calculated computer algorithm where we are correct most of the time, this one we miss probably 50% or more.  As a matter of fact, the first day of the month is closer to astronomical new moon I noticed, because the sighted lunar calendar often lags the calculated one by a day or two.

 

So the first is the actual lunar position the second is average.  An "hour" comparison would be like comparing a sundial to a clock respectively.  The sundial is supreme over the clock regarding solar position, but Hillel's calendar is like using a clock instead.  It's generally right (like a clock) but rest assured, the sun is not usually due south at noon on the clock. But visual is the best way to keep a calendar. I'm just saying that the computer has emulated the visual experience very well (as with the torah calendar), whereas an ancient calendar calculation is nowhere nearly as precise.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

My actual comment was directed towards torahcalendar, which has numerous errors on their home page. They lack understanding of the biblical setting of the monthly calendar, which they claim to have corrected scientifically.

I have now looked up Dr. Ernest Martin. He is pretty much on the fringe.  

My main argument against 9/11 would be the climate. Very simply, in the Bethlehem area, there is no rain during the summer months. With no rain for 4 months, there would be no grass for the sheep to eat in September, so the shepherds would not be out with the sheep.    

 

 

I don't agree with the torah calendar as to how to start the year, as they use the vernal equinox and I use the ripening of Barley in Israel.  However, for those who are in exile and can't view barley, I can see their point as the astronomical seasons and the ripening of barley are related anyway. In other words, it usually turns out that it's around the equinox anyway. Besides, if one (such as Noah) can't see the barley, he probably did not see the moon either with that cataclysm going on.  As one author pointed out, this was perhaps the origin of 30-day "Prophetic" month since counting in intervals of 30 will definitely mean one is in the next month for sure, and the same intervals of numbers are used in Daniel's prophecies when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light --- but these are times of trouble, not normal circumstances that God expected his people to live in. Thus, those would be acceptable ways to temporarily perpetuate the calendar during crisis.

 

I think there's a lot of people who would disagree with your climate theory -- there's plenty of sources who say that sheep could be out then in September, and even if not grazing to be outside since it's not cold. Also it was a custom to bring them in for the rainy season in December back in Christ's time, or at least not have them out at night abiding in the fields unless shepherds liked 40 degree cold rain falling on them; certainly not a Malibu beach. I'd be more inclined to believe that they were feeding during the daytime when it warmed up a tad, but not at night.

 

I'm just curious what you think is wrong with the torah calendar otherwise?  Please be specific.

 

 

I have never seen sheep eat at night. They are not nocturnal animals, so they sleep during the day. So, yes, sheep graze during the day.

 

Given that the timing of the holidays is based on the readiness of the barley, that is a dependency, which is reported to the Priests. Also, the spotting of the new moon, which again reported to the Priests by a minimum of 2 witnesses. This watching and reporting is important as the Mosaic law is a picture of the coming Messiah.

 

I see no difference between the formula put together by Hillel 2 and some computer calculation. The Rabbinic formula was put in place because of the destruction of the Temple, and has been very accurate for almost 1700 years. But neither is consistent with the biblical method. One is due to 'diaspora' and the other is simply because they dislike the Rabbinical formula, but are actually just using a computer generated formula. That is the main fault. They create a method which isn't biblical, ignoring the bible is written by God, and we must assume God knew what and why, for His purposes. And then they criticize the Rabbis for creating a formula so that the Jewish people who were given the Mosaic law could keep the law as much as possible even in diaspora. At the very least, the Rabbis recognized their very accurate formula as a diaspora only solution, until the Temple was rebuilt and they could follow the biblical method.

 

Now the issue with the vernal equinox, is that the barley is not always ready at that time, plus, and even more important, the actual calendar does drift with 12 months based on a lunar cycle. Just as the Gregorian calendar has a shift which must be adjusted every 4 yours with leap day.

 

During the time of the Temple, until the first fruit wave offering, any new harvest was not to be consumed. If you can imagine, the ripening of the barley for the wave offering was very important to the people, and their stomachs. I am sure the people were watching and waiting for that important progress of the barley. Including that announcement meant when they were to prepare to travel to Jerusalem for Passover. Whenever the law has people focused and watching, it is a clue that this is pointing to something very important. We know Jesus was resurrected on the first fruit wave offering of the barley.     

 

_____________________________________

 

I think we are in full agreement here, i.e. I too, agree that the barley is important unlike the torah calendar that rather use the equinox.  Likewise, the month should commence when the moon is sighted.  However, what I was saying is that the algorithm is good enough that the moon is where the torah calendar says it is, and barring weather conditions, WILL BE seen.  Computers have done an excellent job of simulating lunar motion down to the split second.  That is the actual position of the moon, which is directly related to what is then observed. This is a tough call because it's like hanging a plant from the ceiling in front of a clock and then saying it's not half-past yet because we can't see the hands. Actually Yahweh allows for that kind of call for apparently one day. Or to put it another way, He can delay the feast somewhat with the weather.  But most of the time (and I have done this myself and I'm going to say about 90% of the time) I can predict when the moon will be viewed.  I guess God wants to control the other 10%.  Now, this is the actual position of the moon.  Hold that thought.

 

The thing with Hillel is that's an algorithm of the average lunar motion.  It was created for the Diaspora so that everyone was "on the same page" so-to-speak, and I think that's understandable.  However, it cannot accurately predict the lunar crescent from month-to-month, and unlike the calculated computer algorithm where we are correct most of the time, this one we miss probably 50% or more.  As a matter of fact, the first day of the month is closer to astronomical new moon I noticed, because the sighted lunar calendar often lags the calculated one by a day or two.

 

So the first is the actual lunar position the second is average.  An "hour" comparison would be like comparing a sundial to a clock respectively.  The sundial is supreme over the clock regarding solar position, but Hillel's calendar is like using a clock instead.  It's generally right (like a clock) but rest assured, the sun is not usually due south at noon on the clock. But visual is the best way to keep a calendar. I'm just saying that the computer has emulated the visual experience very well (as with the torah calendar), whereas an ancient calendar calculation is nowhere nearly as precise.

 

 

But God commanded the sighting, not the computer generated model. So the computer generated model is not accurate as it doesn't follow the command given by God. When the Temple is rebuilt, if the people depended on a computer generated model rather then the sighting, they are in sin for disobeying the command.

[gnomonist]

 

But God commanded the sighting, not the computer generated model. So the computer generated model is not accurate as it doesn't follow the command given by God. When the Temple is rebuilt, if the people depended on a computer generated model rather then the sighting, they are in sin for disobeying the command.

 

______________________________________

 

And again I agree.  Not debating that whatsoever.  The torah calendar makes us ready to watch for the sighting. But the sighting confirms it and reigns supreme.  If God decides to make a little haze that day, then we know he expects us to delay it another day. No computer program can predict that. If those at the torah calendar do not agree, then that's their error.  But I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bath water.  The fact is that programs like that can emulate the motion of the moon very well, despite their beliefs.  It's not what they believe --- it's their data that I'm excited about.

[Qnts2]

 

 

But God commanded the sighting, not the computer generated model. So the computer generated model is not accurate as it doesn't follow the command given by God. When the Temple is rebuilt, if the people depended on a computer generated model rather then the sighting, they are in sin for disobeying the command.

 

______________________________________

 

And again I agree.  Not debating that whatsoever.  The torah calendar makes us ready to watch for the sighting. But the sighting confirms it and reigns supreme.  If God decides to make a little haze that day, then we know he expects us to delay it another day. No computer program can predict that. If those at the torah calendar do not agree, then that's their error.  But I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bath water.  The fact is that programs like that can emulate the motion of the moon very well, despite their beliefs.  It's not what they believe --- it's their data that I'm excited about.

 

Ok, I am not the least bit excited, and actually believe it leads to sin, and serious error. Their put down of Hillel, claim to accuracy, and claim to authority is extremely troubling. There is much more they miss which if their intention is to make the Mosaic law possible, they are actually violating the Mosaic law by what they are doing.

[gnomonist]

 

 

 

But God commanded the sighting, not the computer generated model. So the computer generated model is not accurate as it doesn't follow the command given by God. When the Temple is rebuilt, if the people depended on a computer generated model rather then the sighting, they are in sin for disobeying the command.

 

______________________________________

 

And again I agree.  Not debating that whatsoever.  The torah calendar makes us ready to watch for the sighting. But the sighting confirms it and reigns supreme.  If God decides to make a little haze that day, then we know he expects us to delay it another day. No computer program can predict that. If those at the torah calendar do not agree, then that's their error.  But I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bath water.  The fact is that programs like that can emulate the motion of the moon very well, despite their beliefs.  It's not what they believe --- it's their data that I'm excited about.

 

Ok, I am not the least bit excited, and actually believe it leads to sin, and serious error. Their put down of Hillel, claim to accuracy, and claim to authority is extremely troubling. There is much more they miss which if their intention is to make the Mosaic law possible, they are actually violating the Mosaic law by what they are doing.

 

________________________________

 

Again, it's the data I'm excited about, not their doctrine.  You may not be into stuff like that as much as I am.  But I find it easy to look at their calculations, and then know when the next month begins, so I know when to watch.  But again, I use the Karaite sightings to confirm it. 

 

You seem to have difficulty in separating the data from the doctrine, and come to the conclusion if they are wrong, then so is the data (or at least what they are doing with it).  This is a veiled Ad hominem attack position.  But the truth is, before I even knew about the Torah Calendar, I'd do the same thing myself with my computer and generate the timing of the new moon, so that I knew when to expect it.  Then, the Karaites would view it and confirm it.  The torahcalendar site just made my computer work easier.  That's all. I don't agree with everything they say. I just use their data. And it's good data.

 

Also, I don't know what Hillel has to do with all this.  The calculated calendar is the last thing I use.

Edited July 30, 2013 by gnomonist

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

But God commanded the sighting, not the computer generated model. So the computer generated model is not accurate as it doesn't follow the command given by God. When the Temple is rebuilt, if the people depended on a computer generated model rather then the sighting, they are in sin for disobeying the command.

 

______________________________________

 

And again I agree.  Not debating that whatsoever.  The torah calendar makes us ready to watch for the sighting. But the sighting confirms it and reigns supreme.  If God decides to make a little haze that day, then we know he expects us to delay it another day. No computer program can predict that. If those at the torah calendar do not agree, then that's their error.  But I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bath water.  The fact is that programs like that can emulate the motion of the moon very well, despite their beliefs.  It's not what they believe --- it's their data that I'm excited about.

 

Ok, I am not the least bit excited, and actually believe it leads to sin, and serious error. Their put down of Hillel, claim to accuracy, and claim to authority is extremely troubling. There is much more they miss which if their intention is to make the Mosaic law possible, they are actually violating the Mosaic law by what they are doing.

 

________________________________

 

Again, it's the data I'm excited about, not their doctrine.  You may not be into stuff like that as much as I am.  But I find it easy to look at their calculations, and then know when the next month begins, so I know when to watch.  But again, I use the Karaite sightings to confirm it. 

 

You seem to have difficulty in separating the data from the doctrine, and come to the conclusion if they are wrong, then so is the data (or at least what they are doing with it).  This is a veiled Ad hominem attack position.  But the truth is, before I even knew about the Torah Calendar, I'd do the same thing myself with my computer and generate the timing of the new moon, so that I knew when to expect it.  Then, the Karaites would view it and confirm it.  The torahcalendar site just made my computer work easier.  That's all. I don't agree with everything they say. I just use their data. And it's good data.

 

Also, I don't know what Hillel has to do with all this.  The calculated calendar is the last thing I use.

 

 

I also think the Karaites are wrong. They might reject the Oral law, rightly so, but in rejecting the Oral law, they neglect some of the written law.

 

In the Mosaic law, God gave the judges a certain level of authority which could not be ignored or disobeyed. While claiming the existence of an Oral law, there were actual judges who made rulings which can not be ignored, as that would be violating scripture. So much of what is being criticized is actually against the Mosaic law to come against, as these were decrees by legitimate judges acting within their authority.  

[gnomonist]

I also think the Karaites are wrong. They might reject the Oral law, rightly so, but in rejecting the Oral law, they neglect some of the written law.

 

In the Mosaic law, God gave the judges a certain level of authority which could not be ignored or disobeyed. While claiming the existence of an Oral law, there were actual judges who made rulings which can not be ignored, as that would be violating scripture. So much of what is being criticized is actually against the Mosaic law to come against, as these were decrees by legitimate judges acting within their authority.  

 

__________________________

 

Again, an Ad hominem attack.  You're claiming that Karaites "are wrong", so therefore you won't listen, even if their calendar is correct. And whether they are right or wrong is not the subject of what we are talking about. We're talking about an observational calendar.

 

So, tell me, just what calendar do you think is correct, and who has it?  I've been quite open and compromising so far, and I've been plenty agreeable, and no matter what you seem to be dissatisfied.  So now I'm calling you out and you now have to demonstrate you know something about time and the calendar, otherwise, you are in a glass house throwing stones at everyone.

[revolutionist90]

 

The actual meaning of Christmas and Easter (Christ's birth and resurrection) seem to be frequently clouded by pagan practices such as the Easter bunny/Easter eggs which were derived from pagan fertility. Santa Claus (St. Nicholas) is also derived from paganism. These different practices of paganism were intertwined within Christian theology so the pagan people could gradually accept Christianity instead of forcing the people to accept. My question is should we still celebrate such holidays with telling kids about Santa or the Easter bunny? Though they can still be joyous occasions should we attempt to strip away the pagan characteristics and leave out the mythology while still celebrating the real meaning of the holidays? Or do the pagan elements matter?

That's a good question.  I celebrate Christmas and Easter, but I would never tell any child that Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny are real.  To me, that is lying, and it is wrong for that reason.  My personal opinion is that they should only be mentioned as fairy tales, and nothing more.  When I first found out Santa Claus was not real, the first question that came to me was if God was real?  I remember reasoning out that he was because adults worship God, but I don't like the doubt it created, if even for a moment.  My cousin had the same initial question, but thankfully, he still believes in God. 

 

To me, Santa Claus is turned into a type of god for the children.  He sees everything they do, and if they are good or bad.  He is immortal.  He has supernatural powers.  I never have liked telling kids that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy are real.  Just let them enjoy them in the same way they do any other children's stories.  It doesn't take away from the celebration. 

 

Celebrating but ignoring the things that actually are not real is a good way to go about it. I remember some atheist publicity sign in New York during Christmas that had Santa Claus on it and linked it to Jesus also not being real and I think your way of going about things would dissociate Santa (who is a myth) from Jesus who is real. So such signs would not have an effect at all if Christmas holidays were less focused on Santa. 

[Qnts2]

 

I also think the Karaites are wrong. They might reject the Oral law, rightly so, but in rejecting the Oral law, they neglect some of the written law.

 

In the Mosaic law, God gave the judges a certain level of authority which could not be ignored or disobeyed. While claiming the existence of an Oral law, there were actual judges who made rulings which can not be ignored, as that would be violating scripture. So much of what is being criticized is actually against the Mosaic law to come against, as these were decrees by legitimate judges acting within their authority.  

 

__________________________

 

Again, an Ad hominem attack.  You're claiming that Karaites "are wrong", so therefore you won't listen, even if their calendar is correct. And whether they are right or wrong is not the subject of what we are talking about. We're talking about an observational calendar.

 

So, tell me, just what calendar do you think is correct, and who has it?  I've been quite open and compromising so far, and I've been plenty agreeable, and no matter what you seem to be dissatisfied.  So now I'm calling you out and you now have to demonstrate you know something about time and the calendar, otherwise, you are in a glass house throwing stones at everyone.

 

 

Saying that Karaites are wrong is hardly an ad hominem attack. It is looking at the Mosaic law and their idea of the Mosaic law in diaspora, and comparing the two. Karaites are a very very small group of Jewish people who diverge from the over all majority, and disagree with the standard authority. They have developed their own traditions, and in some areas do go along with Rabbinics to fit into the community. Actually, Karaite Judaism has picked up a very large group of Christians who are fascinated by Karaite Judaism and follow along with things that are extremely questionable.  There are probably more Christians who read and like some things in Karaite Judaism then there are actual Karaite Jews.

 

  I already gave a rough overview of what scripture says about setting the beginning of months, days, etc. No set calendar matches the commands. And the Mosaic law is a complete unit. One can not pick and choose half laws to follow.  

[gnomonist]

 

 

I also think the Karaites are wrong. They might reject the Oral law, rightly so, but in rejecting the Oral law, they neglect some of the written law.

 

In the Mosaic law, God gave the judges a certain level of authority which could not be ignored or disobeyed. While claiming the existence of an Oral law, there were actual judges who made rulings which can not be ignored, as that would be violating scripture. So much of what is being criticized is actually against the Mosaic law to come against, as these were decrees by legitimate judges acting within their authority.  

 

__________________________

 

Again, an Ad hominem attack.  You're claiming that Karaites "are wrong", so therefore you won't listen, even if their calendar is correct. And whether they are right or wrong is not the subject of what we are talking about. We're talking about an observational calendar.

 

So, tell me, just what calendar do you think is correct, and who has it?  I've been quite open and compromising so far, and I've been plenty agreeable, and no matter what you seem to be dissatisfied.  So now I'm calling you out and you now have to demonstrate you know something about time and the calendar, otherwise, you are in a glass house throwing stones at everyone.

 

 

Saying that Karaites are wrong is hardly an ad hominem attack. It is looking at the Mosaic law and their idea of the Mosaic law in diaspora, and comparing the two. Karaites are a very very small group of Jewish people who diverge from the over all majority, and disagree with the standard authority. They have developed their own traditions, and in some areas do go along with Rabbinics to fit into the community. Actually, Karaite Judaism has picked up a very large group of Christians who are fascinated by Karaite Judaism and follow along with things that are extremely questionable.  There are probably more Christians who read and like some things in Karaite Judaism then there are actual Karaite Jews.

 

  I already gave a rough overview of what scripture says about setting the beginning of months, days, etc. No set calendar matches the commands. And the Mosaic law is a complete unit. One can not pick and choose half laws to follow.  

 

____________________________

 

OK, then let's revisit what you claim the bible says about the start of the months, because I am not really clear that you did state anything specific.

 

There's two ways to start it:  Calculate or observe.  Which do you say is biblically correct?

 

And.... what do the Karaite Jews do to start it?

 

I'll wait for your answer.