Widor1 Posted July 10, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 105 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/20/1987 Share Posted July 10, 2013 A family member posted this statement: "You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong, then you lack empathy, not religion." After getting the conversation turned towards our Creator, he had this to say to me (coming from a pseudo "reform" Jewish background that knows very little about Jewish history or the Old Testament): "Do not worship any other god than the one true God. All other gods are false gods. [this is B.C. and means that we must not try and portray God as human] Do not make idols or images in the form of God. An idol can be anything (or anyone) you worship by giving it more importance than God. If something (or someone) has your time, attention and affections, it has your worship. It could be an idol in your life. no offence, but that sounds a lot like worshiping Jesus to me... I sure wouldn't believe any human being in modern times who claimed that they were actually God, because "I" understand that that is beside the point; God is omniscient and omnipresent...I mean, so before Christ there was no God??? Honestly I am asking?!" What are some ways you would defend the Gospel from an Old Testament viewpoint? How would you respond to these comments if this was a friend or family member? I have already given an initial response, but it would be great to get some new ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 10, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I'd first like to know what this person believes about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and if this person even worships Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted July 10, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2013 I would change things up. Your current argument is about the 'impossibility' of a man being God. And from there, worshipping a man. Judaism looks forward towards a Messiah (although reform Judaism tries to alter the concept somewhat). Jesus claimed to be that Messiah. Jesus Christ with Christ coming from Greek, meaning 'Annointed One'. The Hebrew word for Messiah is Moshiach which means annointed one. The discussion as to whether Jesus is the prophesied Messiah from the Tenakh (OT) relates more with Jewish thought. Since this person is reform, they may not know what Tenakh is. In Judaism, the first five books of Moses is called the Torah (He will know this). What Christians call the Old Testament is three separate books in Judaism. The prophetic books is called the Prophets or in Hebrew the Neviim. And the other writings like Psalms, is called Writing or in Hebrew, Ketuvim. TeNaKh is an acronym for Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim. Christians believe Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) is the Messiah. The Christ. The Jewish Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widor1 Posted July 10, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 105 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/20/1987 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 I'd first like to know what this person believes about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and if this person even worships Him. Well, he posted this stuff above, and then says we should "come to our own individual conclusions based on our experiences." So I'm going to guess no, he does not worship Him. Although he says that God is omniscient and omnipresent, I don't think he knows what he believes about God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widor1 Posted July 10, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 105 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/20/1987 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 I would change things up. Your current argument is about the 'impossibility' of a man being God. And from there, worshipping a man. Judaism looks forward towards a Messiah (although reform Judaism tries to alter the concept somewhat). Jesus claimed to be that Messiah. Jesus Christ with Christ coming from Greek, meaning 'Annointed One'. The Hebrew word for Messiah is Moshiach which means annointed one. The discussion as to whether Jesus is the prophesied Messiah from the Tenakh (OT) relates more with Jewish thought. Since this person is reform, they may not know what Tenakh is. In Judaism, the first five books of Moses is called the Torah (He will know this). What Christians call the Old Testament is three separate books in Judaism. The prophetic books is called the Prophets or in Hebrew the Neviim. And the other writings like Psalms, is called Writing or in Hebrew, Ketuvim. TeNaKh is an acronym for Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim. Christians believe Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) is the Messiah. The Christ. The Jewish Messiah. Thank you for your response. I actually did not post my argument to this person on this forum; he is the one claiming the impossibility about God being a man, not me. I believe he has some Old Testament knowledge, but (like most of my family) he thinks that while it seems to be based on historical facts, things get skewed over time, etc etc... This is the first real discussion we have ever had together about Jesus (yay!) and I want to present arguments from an Old Testament perspective, since he has more knowledge of that (albeit very little) than the New Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted July 10, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2013 I would change things up. Your current argument is about the 'impossibility' of a man being God. And from there, worshipping a man. Judaism looks forward towards a Messiah (although reform Judaism tries to alter the concept somewhat). Jesus claimed to be that Messiah. Jesus Christ with Christ coming from Greek, meaning 'Annointed One'. The Hebrew word for Messiah is Moshiach which means annointed one. The discussion as to whether Jesus is the prophesied Messiah from the Tenakh (OT) relates more with Jewish thought. Since this person is reform, they may not know what Tenakh is. In Judaism, the first five books of Moses is called the Torah (He will know this). What Christians call the Old Testament is three separate books in Judaism. The prophetic books is called the Prophets or in Hebrew the Neviim. And the other writings like Psalms, is called Writing or in Hebrew, Ketuvim. TeNaKh is an acronym for Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim. Christians believe Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) is the Messiah. The Christ. The Jewish Messiah. Thank you for your response. I actually did not post my argument to this person on this forum; he is the one claiming the impossibility about God being a man, not me. I believe he has some Old Testament knowledge, but (like most of my family) he thinks that while it seems to be based on historical facts, things get skewed over time, etc etc... This is the first real discussion we have ever had together about Jesus (yay!) and I want to present arguments from an Old Testament perspective, since he has more knowledge of that (albeit very little) than the New Testament. Ok. His argument is the center of everything taught in Judaism. That there is only One God. And that we are to only worship the One True God. If a man walked up to you and said He was the angel Michael, I think at least I would look at him and think he needed to talk to someone cause obviously he is dilusional. In Jewish thought, a man who claims to be God is probably nuts and in need of some strong meds. The idea that God came to earth, clothed in human flesh is something one comes to believe by faith. Faith that the New Testament is true, and faith the Jesus is the truth. In the NT, the initial claim was that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. The main question among the Jewish people was, is this man Jesus the prophesied Messiah. So, from a Jewish perspective, the first question is, is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? The OT/Tenakh has the prophesies and the NT is the recording by those who witnessed Jesus, per Mosaic law, which requires 2 or 3 witnesses, and attest to what Jesus did and said, to show He was the Messiah. The NT written mostly by Jewish believers, with the Mosaic holy days, and located in Israel, is actually a book which sounds very Jewish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I don't think that I would approach this with any preconceived conception - "like O.T. Style", especially since as reformed Jews, they are not that into that way of thinking anyway. Jesus is not only the Messiah of the Jews, He is the savior of mankind, and his appeal and offer is to all, and does not need specialization, the appeal is a universal one. That being said, the New Testament was written during a time when the Old Testament was all the Bible there was - so in essence it IS old testament style. In other words, it was written pre-New Testament, to a people who were pre-New Testament, by People who were pre-New Testament. More specifically, much of it was written to Jews and by Jews. The Apostle Paul was as Jewish as one can get, and his hearts desire was that his people (Jews) would come to know their Messiah. In other words, the New Testament is exactly what you asked for. If one cannot learn about the Messiah, from those who personally knew Him, where will we find a better source? Al that being said, I suggest possibly reading the following book: http://omegazine.com/books/witnessingtojews.html (you can actually read the majority of the book there online.) There is also a book called: What the Rabbis Know about the Messiah: A Study of Genealogy and Prophecy which I think is a very good book, and anyone with Jewish leanings who is not impressed with it's content, has to be intentionally close minded (not unusual) and lack of information or presentation of a good message, is not at all the issue. This comes to the heart of the matter anyway. People reject Jesus because of a heart condition, a spiritual blindness, so answer their questions as you can, but do not lose sight of the fact that it is a spiritual battle, and in a spiritual battle, you need spiritual weapons. Pray, and pray some more, and pray again, and if they have not accepted Jesus, then assume that you have not prayed enough yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widor1 Posted July 11, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 140 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 105 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/20/1987 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Thank you for the responses. Please pray for my family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Praying~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 11, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,434 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,581 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Prayed... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts