JDavis Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Share Posted July 16, 2013 From John 7... After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. 3 So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. 4 For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For not even his brothers believed in him. 6 Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. 8 You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After saying this, he remained in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. My question is, did Jesus purposefully deceive his brothers about his intent on going to the Feast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted July 16, 2013 From John 7... After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. 3 So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. 4 For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For not even his brothers believed in him. 6 Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. 8 You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After saying this, he remained in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. My question is, did Jesus purposefully deceive his brothers about his intent on going to the Feast? “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. This actually answers the question for me. His time was not yet, and He needed to complete His work here. So did He tell them one thing and then go on in private? Yes. What if He said, "nope not yet, see I am the Son of God, and I am going to be crucified soon, and if I go in public I know what will happen, and it is not my Fathers plan for me to die today". Would they have believed Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDavis Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 From John 7... After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. 2 Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. 3 So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. 4 For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” 5 For not even his brothers believed in him. 6 Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. 8 You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” 9 After saying this, he remained in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. My question is, did Jesus purposefully deceive his brothers about his intent on going to the Feast? “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. This actually answers the question for me. His time was not yet, and He needed to complete His work here. So did He tell them one thing and then go on in private? Yes. What if He said, "nope not yet, see I am the Son of God, and I am going to be crucified soon, and if I go in public I know what will happen, and it is not my Fathers plan for me to die today". Would they have believed Him? Just to clarify, you are saying that Jesus did deceive His brothers, is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted July 16, 2013 It's in thousands of web sites, and has thousands of answers, and it is one of the most common questions used to try and sow division. Go look at the word "yet", and look at it's definition and which versions it appears in. I am sure, after having introduced the topic, you know what I am talking about. Like this... You go up to the feast. I am not (yet - deleted from some scripture)) going up to this feast. This might help you.... Texts which do not contain "yet": Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th century uncial Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis, a 4/5th century uncial K, a 9th century uncial Pi, a 9th century uncial 1241, a 12th century miniscule most of the existing Old Latin mss. the Latin Vulgate mss. set The Cureitonian and Sinaitic Syriac sets, both from the 4th century The majority of the northern Coptic (Bohairic) mss., dating from the 4th century Texts which contain "yet": p66, an uncial papyrus dated to around 200 AD p75, a 3rd century uncial papyrus Codex Vaticanus, a 4th century uncial L, an 8th century uncial T, a 5th century uncial W, a 5th century uncial, known as the "Freer Gospels" due to its mixed textual witness, witnesses for the Alexandrian set in John X, a 10th century uncial Delta, a 9th century uncial Theta, a 9th century uncial Psi, an 8/9th century uncial 0180, a 6th century uncial f1 and f13, two families of miniscules containing a total of 16 mss. with similar readings, dating from the 11th-14th centuries 28, an 11th century miniscule 700, an 11th century miniscule 892, a 9th century miniscule 1010, a 12th century miniscule The Byzantine majority set The majority of Greek lectionaries The Peshitta Syriac mss. set, dated between the 3rd-5th centuries The Harclean Syriac mss. set, from the 7th century One northern Coptic (Bohairic) ms. from the 4th century The southern Coptic (Sahidic) mss. set, from the 3rd century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDavis Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 It's in thousands of web sites, and has thousands of answers, and it is one of the most common questions used to try and sow division. Go look at the word "yet", and look at it's definition and which versions it appears in. I am sure, after having introduced the topic, you know what I am talking about. Like this... You go up to the feast. I am not (yet - deleted from some scripture)) going up to this feast. This might help you.... Texts which do not contain "yet": Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th century uncial Codex Bezae Cantabrigiensis, a 4/5th century uncial K, a 9th century uncial Pi, a 9th century uncial 1241, a 12th century miniscule most of the existing Old Latin mss. the Latin Vulgate mss. set The Cureitonian and Sinaitic Syriac sets, both from the 4th century The majority of the northern Coptic (Bohairic) mss., dating from the 4th century Texts which contain "yet": p66, an uncial papyrus dated to around 200 AD p75, a 3rd century uncial papyrus Codex Vaticanus, a 4th century uncial L, an 8th century uncial T, a 5th century uncial W, a 5th century uncial, known as the "Freer Gospels" due to its mixed textual witness, witnesses for the Alexandrian set in John X, a 10th century uncial Delta, a 9th century uncial Theta, a 9th century uncial Psi, an 8/9th century uncial 0180, a 6th century uncial f1 and f13, two families of miniscules containing a total of 16 mss. with similar readings, dating from the 11th-14th centuries 28, an 11th century miniscule 700, an 11th century miniscule 892, a 9th century miniscule 1010, a 12th century miniscule The Byzantine majority set The majority of Greek lectionaries The Peshitta Syriac mss. set, dated between the 3rd-5th centuries The Harclean Syriac mss. set, from the 7th century One northern Coptic (Bohairic) ms. from the 4th century The southern Coptic (Sahidic) mss. set, from the 3rd century I am not trying to sow discontent, I am trying to put together evidence that not all lies or deceptions are sins. I have seen it put forth as Righteous vs Evil deception. That not unlike killing, God does not view them all the same. I do not believe that Rahab sinned when she lied about the spies. I do not believe that the midwives sinned when they lied to Pharaoh about the Hebrew babies. Joshua and Gideon and Tamar all used deception and I do not believe they were sinning when they did so. And in the same train of thought, I do believe that Jesus knew he was going to go to the feast and the he misled his brothers for a righteous purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnomonist Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 272 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/29/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 16, 2013 I would not use such a passage because of the confusion in the language as to what Christ said can be taken differently. I would not take this as a deception simply because he said he was not going to the feast, which he did not. He had things to do there yet (more important than to entertain his brothers' dubious fancies) and his time was not to go then. These feast days are prophetic of things to come, and perhaps there was something a tad wrong with his brothers' timing. Plus, due to the political nature of his presence did not want to be seen publicly. But then he decided to go later. I think an equivalent conversation today would be if your friends asked, "Are you going to the concert with us?" "No, you go, I'm not coming." To which later on may decide to come alone, the former is truthful and not deception. At least it's not deception to me, but some people see things so black and white this is why such arguments over communication take place, and I would not be surprised if friendships ended over such ways of communicating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted July 16, 2013 I am not trying to sow discontent, I am trying to put together evidence that not all lies or deceptions are sins. I have seen it put forth as Righteous vs Evil deception. That not unlike killing, God does not view them all the same. I do not believe that Rahab sinned when she lied about the spies. I do not believe that the midwives sinned when they lied to Pharaoh about the Hebrew babies. Joshua and Gideon and Tamar all used deception and I do not believe they were sinning when they did so. And in the same train of thought, I do believe that Jesus knew he was going to go to the feast and the he misled his brothers for a righteous purpose.Then I would advise that you not use the word Jesus and deceive in the same sentence?There is only one deceiver and it is not Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDavis Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,740 Content Per Day: 0.44 Reputation: 183 Days Won: 7 Joined: 07/02/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/02/1964 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 I am not trying to sow discontent, I am trying to put together evidence that not all lies or deceptions are sins. I have seen it put forth as Righteous vs Evil deception. That not unlike killing, God does not view them all the same. I do not believe that Rahab sinned when she lied about the spies. I do not believe that the midwives sinned when they lied to Pharaoh about the Hebrew babies. Joshua and Gideon and Tamar all used deception and I do not believe they were sinning when they did so. And in the same train of thought, I do believe that Jesus knew he was going to go to the feast and the he misled his brothers for a righteous purpose. Then I would advise that you not use the word Jesus and deceive in the same sentence? There is only one deceiver and it is not Jesus. Is all deception evil and wrong? was God wrong to use deception in the battle that Gideon fought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeedYouLord Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 601 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 196 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/27/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 16, 2013 Also what was Jesus purpose...to do the Will of the Father...and knowing what I know now: The Kingdom of God is exactly opposite to "the world"...on earth as it is in Heaven...ummm...and to see The Kingdom of God, I have to be born again... This shows us a wonderful thing and then is confirmed again in other scriptures...It's always good to let scripture confirm scripture... What it is showing me is that His brothers were "in the world" (mainly because they didn't believe in Him) and "the world" says: Oh my, show off to others...(I can just see the brothers saying to Jesus, "You keep saying You are so and so and we see the "works" and we know that somebody wants to be known. And someone that wants to be known doesn't do anything in secret...) The Kingdom of God and The Will of God are exactly the opposite... Matthew 6:4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. Matthew 6:6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. Matthew 6:18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father whois in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. I have lived these verses...There was a great need in my life that I told no-one about...I only went in prayer in secret to My Father...and what I received was more than I could have ever asked for...More...Whew...Having a God Moment...Thank You, Lord...I Need You... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 16, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted July 16, 2013 I am not trying to sow discontent, I am trying to put together evidence that not all lies or deceptions are sins. I have seen it put forth as Righteous vs Evil deception. That not unlike killing, God does not view them all the same. I do not believe that Rahab sinned when she lied about the spies. I do not believe that the midwives sinned when they lied to Pharaoh about the Hebrew babies. Joshua and Gideon and Tamar all used deception and I do not believe they were sinning when they did so. And in the same train of thought, I do believe that Jesus knew he was going to go to the feast and the he misled his brothers for a righteous purpose.Then I would advise that you not use the word Jesus and deceive in the same sentence?There is only one deceiver and it is not Jesus. Is all deception evil and wrong? was God wrong to use deception in the battle that Gideon fought?God is never wrong, never. But then again His motive is always Love.Ours, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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