Are they all going to Hell?

[a-seeker]

 

 

 

I was watching a video of Sam Harris criticizing Christians for believing that all believers in other faiths wind up in Hell, since Christianity is the only Way.  I got to thinking about it and the verse John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life:  no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."  I have long thought that this meant all (even decent) people of other faiths wind up in Hell for not believing on Him, even though they never heard the Gospel.  But this is one interpretation of the verse.  I have come around to considering what sends someone to Hell.  It is rejection of Christ.  These hundreds of millions of people did not have the chance, so why should we interpret the verse to mean that God will not provide a chance for them in a mysterious way?  This is known as Inclusivism; many Christians, including CS Lewis thought this way, as do I.  Exclusivism is the former idea.

I have taken much chastisement for holding this view, but I think it is the only rational way in accordance with the Love of God to answer this perplexing issue.   I am a very enthusiastic supporter of missionary efforts and this view does not diminish the urgency of the Gospel at all.   Let me know what you think.

 

 

Because, men will be in their specific DISPENSATION.

 

In other words, all souls from Adam to Moses will be in the Dispensation of their CONSCIOUS.  Why?  Because the law of Moses didn't exist.  So, they cannot be judged by the Law.

 

From Moses to Jesus, it is the Dispensation of the Law.  That is how they will be judged.

 

But what about the nations who never heard the Law of Moses?  Well, they would stil be on the dispensation of the conscious.  And the Law was givne to the Jew anyway, not the nations of the earth.

 

Fast forward to Jesus, and the Dispensation of Grace.  The Law no longer applies (though this does not mean reckless abandon of the "moral law").  We will be judged by the Dispensation of Grace - our obediance to Jesus. 

 

But what about people who are living right now and never heard the Gospel?  Same thing - Dispensation of the Conscious.

 

Then comes another Dispensation post the Rapture.  It's not more "repent - turn to Jesus and be saved".  Instead, it's "do not take the mark or bow to the image of the beast"  So, they will be judged differently.  They are not even among the uncountable number in Revelation, but are instead under the throne of God.

 

 

 

Some people try to excuse themselves saying "not everyone has a conscious".  Yes you do.  We know this because ADAM ATE OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. God will Judge!

 

 

Scriptures also say that in times past, God WINKED (excused) their sins, but no longer.  NOW He calls all to repent through Jesus.  But obviously if someone has never heard doens't know to follow.  They will be Judged differently, and that is based on the dispensation that they lived in.

 

 

ABEL will be judged different from Joshua.

JOSHUA will be judged different from Peter.

PETER and I will be judged the same.

The person in the Tribulation may be judged differently from the Raptured saint.

 

Why?  Because of the different dispensations.

 

But all are judged for SIN (not necessarily sinS [which is plural]).  And that singular SIN is rejection of God ... whether its offending your conscious, disobeying the Law of Moses, rejecting the Gospel, or taking the mark of the beast. 

 

SIN ... is summed up in rejection of God.

 

That is what men will be judged for.  So, that is the root of Judgment, but the means will probably depend on their dispensation.

 

I've never understood the logic of dispensationalism so I would greatly appreciate an explanation.  When you say people are judged by conscience, you mean "damned" or "judged"?  i.e. is it possible to be judged favorably if you lived before in the time between Adam and Moses--it would be hard to condemn Noah to hell since, on this view, his conscience was clean.  But then that means it is possible to sin and still be saved, right (or was Noah as perfect in moral obedience as Jesus)?  And NOah was saved quite apart from Christ's sacrifice?

 

Which obviously yields the question: "Why not stick to one dispensation if it works just as well as any other?"

 

clb

 

Sorry for the late response.  Basically, its easy to grasp when you simply look at what actually occurred.  Consider a few things.

 

Was Cain judged for MURDER?

Was Noah charged for DRUNKENNESS?

Was Abraham charged for IDOL WORSHIP (even Jacobs wife carried idols)?

 

No.

 

There is a reason why they weren't.  The Law of Moses didn't exist yet.  Mankind had no law, and when there is no law, there is no transgression.  How can you be fined for "speeding" when there is no law against speeding?  You cannot be.  And you cannot have any form of a law in the absence of punishment for breaking it.  Otherwise, it will not be effective.

 

Those ancients will be judged on their conscious.  Basically, did they listen to the voice in their head to not do wrong, or did they ignore it.

 

The Israelites will be judged on their observation of the Law, as the Law is the taskmaster that teachers us the difference between what God expects of us, and what He hates.  so, take notice...

 

Where people judged for MURDER?  Yes.

Where people judged because of DRUNKENNESS?  Yes.

Where people judged for IDOL WORSHIP? Yes.

 

That is because there is no more excuse once you are told.  They weren't told in the dispensation of the conscious.  People in the absence of the Law ... cannot be judged BY the Law.

 

 

There are enough webpages to give you greater detail (or abysmally ignorant opinions) on the dispensations.

 

 

Just know that they exist, academically.  It's not a Biblical teaching, similar to how the Law has no classification such as "moral" or "dietary" or "ceremony" ... but to better understand the Law, we divide it into those segments.  We do the same for the dispensations.

 

Just know, also, that the BOTTOM LINE IS...

 

God will Judge the world for SIN, and that singular SIN is rejection of Him regardless of what dispensation the person lives in.

 

 

Indulge me in some questions which might help me understand:

 

Is it possible for a person in the dispensation of conscience to merit or attain admittance into heaven (there will be people in heaven who lived a life decent enough to be accepted), or does "judgment" simply mean condemnation, and each dispensation entails a condemnation but on different grounds; i.e. the truly bad student will fail whether the grade is based on reading, papers, participation, attendance?  

 

Does Jesus' atonement have anything to do with the salvation of those who lived in a different dispensation, or is his sacrifice only for those who live in that dispensation?

[bestrfcplayer]

People who have done countless evil deeds deserve only the fires of hell. The only way that they can be saved is if they sacrifice themselves for the peace of mankind, like in a heroic event.

 

You obviously don't know anything at all about Jesus or the Gospel he brought us.....    and that's a shame....    for your sake I pray that the Lord would open your eyes to his truths.

Christ told us that we should help,our fellow man, thus good works. If one is evil, he can be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the good of mankind, which is the ultimate Christ like action one can do to obtain the Kingdom of God.

[enoob57]

Isn't the dispensation of conscience a sort of salvation by merit then?  If an ancient person or someone with no exposure to the Law or Gospel listens to their conscience and does the right thing, isn't that saying that they are justified by righteousness?

The dispensational period of conscious in God's Word being from fall to flood is covered in the

judgment of God this way:

Rom 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness

and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for

God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him

from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood

by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;

so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew

God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but

became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was

darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image

made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts,

and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to

uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour

their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of

God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than

the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even

their women did change the natural use into that which is against

nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of

the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men

working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that

recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did

not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a

reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,

covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit,

malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful,

proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural

affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of

God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not

only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

KJV

So from the slaying of Abel to the entire world, with exception of Noah and family eight souls,

destroyed by drowning- we have God's O.T. example reinforced to the need of being Born Again.

As the internal part of self- being already leavened by sin is unable by conscience to obey God

as the conscious now begins in the leaven of sin and is consumed upon it's own lusts! The need

of God's Work through His Son to provide brand new being apart from sin kept by the jealous power

of God by sealing with His Holy Spirit lies the finish of God's seal upon the Revelation of His Son...

Love, Steven

[Guest]

People who have done countless evil deeds deserve only the fires of hell. The only way that they can be saved is if they sacrifice themselves for the peace of mankind, like in a heroic event.

 

You obviously don't know anything at all about Jesus or the Gospel he brought us.....    and that's a shame....    for your sake I pray that the Lord would open your eyes to his truths.

Christ told us that we should help, our fellow man, thus good works. If one is evil, he can be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the good of mankind, which is the ultimate Christ like action one can do to obtain the Kingdom of God.

 

~

 

Our

 

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

 

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

 

Their feet are swift to shed blood:

 

Destruction and misery are in their ways:

 

And the way of peace have they not known:

 

There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:10-18

 

Righteousness

 

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:1

 

His

 

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:27

 

Righteousness

 

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

[enoob57]

People who have done countless evil deeds deserve only the fires of hell. The only way that they can be saved is if they sacrifice themselves for the peace of mankind, like in a heroic event.

 

You obviously don't know anything at all about Jesus or the Gospel he brought us.....    and that's a shame....    for your sake I pray that the Lord would open your eyes to his truths.

Christ told us that we should help,our fellow man, thus good works. If one is evil, he can be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the good of mankind, which is the ultimate Christ like action one can do to obtain the Kingdom of God.

 

~

 

Our Righteousness

 

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:1

 

His

 

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:27

 

Righteousness

 

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

I mean filthy!

You can smell a self righteous person anywhere...

[bestrfcplayer]

People who have done countless evil deeds deserve only the fires of hell. The only way that they can be saved is if they sacrifice themselves for the peace of mankind, like in a heroic event.

 You obviously don't know anything at all about Jesus or the Gospel he brought us.....    and that's a shame....    for your sake I pray that the Lord would open your eyes to his truths.

Christ told us that we should help,our fellow man, thus good works. If one is evil, he can be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the good of mankind, which is the ultimate Christ like action one can do to obtain the Kingdom of God.

 ~ Our Righteousness But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:1 His  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:27 Righteousness For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

I mean filthy!You can smell a self righteous person anywhere...

I am not self righteous if that's what your implying. I know that I am a sinner according to God, and sin and make mistakes every single day. Though it is through Christ Jesus that I am saved.

[Guest]

You can smell a self righteous person anywhere...

 

~

 

Beloved He Is Being Lied To

 

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:23-28

 

By Folk Who Spit On The Precious Blood Of Jesus

 

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

 

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:18-21

 

And Tell The Little Children They Will Spend Time In Hell

 

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

 

If They Misbehave

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

 

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

So Love Him For It Maybe The Last Love He Ever Knows

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[enoob57]

People who have done countless evil deeds deserve only the fires of hell. The only way that they can be saved is if they sacrifice themselves for the peace of mankind, like in a heroic event.

 You obviously don't know anything at all about Jesus or the Gospel he brought us.....    and that's a shame....    for your sake I pray that the Lord would open your eyes to his truths.

Christ told us that we should help,our fellow man, thus good works. If one is evil, he can be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the good of mankind, which is the ultimate Christ like action one can do to obtain the Kingdom of God.

 ~ Our Righteousness But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:1 His  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:27 Righteousness For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

I mean filthy!You can smell a self righteous person anywhere...

I am not self righteous if that's what your implying. I know that I am a sinner according to God, and sin and make mistakes every single day. Though it is through Christ Jesus that I am saved.

With the heart that is born again never will we come before Him Worthy of His Blood by the works of our own hands

but always in unmerited favor and grace undeserved... as your first comment did not proclaim

There was only One Body that was perfect and worthy of Sacrifice that of Jesus'; ours you can burn, beat,

persecute all day and there no merit in such... but the heart that is within folded out to God saying

I love you and this body has no relevance to that of my Lord's given for me in Love, Steven

Edited April 10, 2014 by enoob57

[a-seeker]

 

 

People who have done countless evil deeds deserve only the fires of hell. The only way that they can be saved is if they sacrifice themselves for the peace of mankind, like in a heroic event.

 

You obviously don't know anything at all about Jesus or the Gospel he brought us.....    and that's a shame....    for your sake I pray that the Lord would open your eyes to his truths.

Christ told us that we should help,our fellow man, thus good works. If one is evil, he can be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the good of mankind, which is the ultimate Christ like action one can do to obtain the Kingdom of God.

 

Hello Best,

 

There is a logical problem with your assessment.  You say "countless deeds" but deeds are "countable", in the sense that there are only so many and no more and no less.  Thus the question is, how many bad deeds puts one over the brink of salvation by Christ and rests one on the side of meritorious sacrifice?  Seems rather arbitrary--why not one more or one less bad deed to determine one's fate?

 

The fact of the matter is, salvation in Christ means salvation by death of the old self and rebirth to the new.  By participation in his death we are freed from sin; participation in his resurrection we are raised to righteousness.  Only complete destruction of the old man leads to creation of the new.  So that in one sense, we all suffer the same fate, the really wicked and the wicked and the fairly wicked and the really bad etc. (judging by human standards, of courese).  If I may use baptism as an example--if drowning is the only way to survive, what does it matter how many sins you committed, you have to drown anyway before you are raised.  That is Christianity.  We all must die in Christ, drown in baptism, before we wake up on the shoreline of heaven.

 

 

 

clb

Edited April 11, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[ABMF]

To be fair, Inclusivism and Exclusivism imply or consider much more.  I have just touched on one aspect of the two views.

The gospel is simple. Not complicated and mystic. Those who believe on Jesus have everlasting life and those who do not believe are condemned already.  No universal many ways, or a maybe perchance they will make it worshiping some other way then in Spirit and in Truth. The Lord is the Spirit and Jesus is the Truth! So all of it leads back to, if they don't worshiping God abiding in Jesus they ain't going to make it. 

Edited April 14, 2014 by ABMF