Are they all going to Hell?

[ajchurney]

Thanks Steven!!

So true that religion endlessly debates goodness, when in reality we are just arguing by comparison of one human to another and degrees of sin. If Christ is the standard, His perfection makes us all look like....well....poop! Isaiah said all our righteousness is like a woman's period rags....not attractive!! To others reading this post, before you try to prop up one sinner as being "good" compared to another, you might want to put on some Holy Spirit goggles instead of our typical human religious goggles. The truly strange thing is not that God is so mean and unjust as to send a soul to hell, but that a God as awesome and perfect as He is stooped down to give his only earthborn son to be brutally killed in our place, in YOUR place (its intensely personal after all). The truth that a rebellious sinner, of whatever degree of sin they engage in, can receive a real and life-changing pardon and transformation such as is offrered to us in the New Covenant. The true miracle is the possibility of reconciliation and relationship with God Almighty through the amazing and incredible death, ressurection, and ascension of Jesus Christ. If we were half as amazed by this as we should be, it puts a better perspective on things. Ignorance of Christ is a tragedy for humanity that should pull on our hearts, stir up our desire for action, and demand something from our pocketbooks.

If it is possible in the loving mercy of Christ to pardon sinners in their ignorance of Him, without violating His word or His Holy justice, we can trust Him to do it. If someone can more clearly demonstrate this from scripture, apart from opinions or simple human feelings, wonderful! Anything else......just wouldn't be truth!

In Him, Andy

[a-seeker]

 

 

I

To sum up if you don’t accept Christ you will not enter the penthouse.  But I do think you will be given a chance.  If a non Christian clothes, feeds, visits people in prison or hospital.  (Leads a good life treating others with respect) It would not be truly just to send them to the same place as murders, rapists ETC.  The way I have shown above is the only fair process and if anything Jesus is fair and merciful. In my opinion if it doesn’t make sense there’s something wrong.

 

God Bless stay in the love and the light.

 

I'm sorry but the above is simply not biblical.  Jesus told us He is the way....the only way.  Please read your Bible for the truth. 

 

Hi MorningGlory peace be with you what a lovely name you have picked.

I’m sorry to have to disagree with you but this piece of scripture tells me it is biblical.  (Proverbs 19:17 Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.)  There is so much more to the New Testament than just words.  When I read it I can feel it, the compassion, the forgiveness, the divine love that oozes out of every page.  The Jesus that I have come to know is everything of the above and then some.  In my opinion the Jesus that I have come to know through the Gospel will not condemn Good people.  This life is a test and if God gave us all the information it would not be much of a test that’s why there are so many different Christian religions and sects.  Who is to say who is right and who is wrong.  Each relationship with Christ is a personal one and if it is right for you well, then its right for you.

 

Stay in the love & the light. God Bless.

 

hello Ireland! I've read some of your correspondences and would rather address you personally than include a thousand other posts...

 

I believe in some sense (and not because I am Irish) we are on the same page.

 

The difference being perhaps of definitions.  I believe there is nothing in Scripture that tells me there cannot be opportunities to accept Christ postmortem.  There are passages that suggest this positively; there is nothing that fully negates this (i.e. no discussion in the Scriptures that says to this effect, "hey, I know there is a big debate about whether Native Americans (or others) who have never heard about Jesus will or will not be saved; well, I'm an Apostle and I am telling you with authority THEY ARE ALL DAMNED").

 

However, I want to clarify something which you probably already believe.  Christ is the only way, in the sense that only by mystical union with Him by faith can a person be reborn so as to be in full communion with the Father, a communion unimpeded by sin.  Even if persons who lived a "good" life are saved, it is not because of their "goodness" but because they are provided opportunities to accept Christ as Lord and thereby enter into the mystical process of death and resurrection.  I agree with most here that goodness has nothing to do with salvation--because salvation is not about giving a grade (hey, you got a C so take your diploma); it's about recreation.

 

What do I mean by mystical?  I mean it transcends space and time; therefore we must use language that doesn't quite work: i.e "enter into life with Christ--spatial; join with Christ in death and resurrection -- spatial; participate in his death and resurrection--spatial etc. etc".  All language falls short of what we really mean.

 

The real question is whether persons who never had the opportunity in this life (Native Americans, Africans before colonialism, Asians before expansion west, Aztecs before quests to the "new world" etc. etc. etc.) to encounter Christ will be given an opportunity postmortem?   Only Christ is the way; for only through Christ is the sinful flesh destroyed and the New Man raised.  but whether this life is the only one in which this is possible I do not know, and I doubt it is.  There are far more theological problems that arise from denying this then there are from entertaining it as a possibility.

 

Others will say this is speculative; I reply that all other attempts to answer the problem are speculative as well--to say that God withheld the good news which transforms man from Native Americans because He knew they would not believe is speculative.  I respect those that say "it is not our business to speculate".  I disagree--I think God wants us to ask questions and seek answers--but I can appreciate their view.  Those that say "No, they are all damned" I cannot appreciate; and I admit I have sometimes wondered whether it is the Spirit of God that prompts this reply, or rather some other spirit at work.

 

clb

[ajchurney]

Connor, 

That was a very thoughtful and unusually insightful reply to the man from Ireland. Yes, if one is to have a hope of salvation in ignorance of Christ, it has to be based upon standing before Jesus postmortem and demonstrating a submissive, responsive attitude towards the light of truth that one did receive. There is no way "around" Christ to get to the Father, so one has to theologically find room for this or its just another human, religious idea that did not originate with the Spirit. The clear message of the Gospel is that one must repent and place total trust in the sacrificial death of Christ and the proof of the resurrection. This opens the door to regeneration. Of course, the whole discussion is centered on NOT having heard the Gospel! I appreciate you pointing out that the apostles nowhere state that "ALL are going to hell apart from specifically responding to the Gospel!" Praise Gog that this does not reduce the Gospel as the "good news" that it is, because it is the power of God unto salvation to every man! Anyone who is truly born anew wants everyone to have this indescribable blessing, both for what it is to us now, and for the amazing promise it holds for our future in heaven. Even if some will pass muster with Jesus at His judgement seat postmortem, our only hope of total fulfillment and entering into the new covenant blessing in this life is the Gospel. 

There is an aspect of the whole discussion that just now strikes me. It is easy to so emphasize heaven as our future, that you get this "golden ticket" mentality, and endlessly debate who gets or doesn't get the "golden ticket". What we receive in this life (a new and living spirit, and the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit) is so amazing that it is worth EVERYTHING! We receive a piece of heaven on earth now, as a guarantee of the future entire inheritance. Whatever we have to do to share this with a sick and desperate world is worth it all. Maybe we need to think of it like this: New Life now is the best thing anyone can get, and BONUS....it's forever!!!! 

Just some thoughts, Andy

[a-seeker]

Connor, 

That was a very thoughtful and unusually insightful reply to the man from Ireland. Yes, if one is to have a hope of salvation in ignorance of Christ, it has to be based upon standing before Jesus postmortem and demonstrating a submissive, responsive attitude towards the light of truth that one did receive. There is no way "around" Christ to get to the Father, so one has to theologically find room for this or its just another human, religious idea that did not originate with the Spirit. The clear message of the Gospel is that one must repent and place total trust in the sacrificial death of Christ and the proof of the resurrection. This opens the door to regeneration. Of course, the whole discussion is centered on NOT having heard the Gospel! I appreciate you pointing out that the apostles nowhere state that "ALL are going to hell apart from specifically responding to the Gospel!" Praise Gog that this does not reduce the Gospel as the "good news" that it is, because it is the power of God unto salvation to every man! Anyone who is truly born anew wants everyone to have this indescribable blessing, both for what it is to us now, and for the amazing promise it holds for our future in heaven. Even if some will pass muster with Jesus at His judgement seat postmortem, our only hope of total fulfillment and entering into the new covenant blessing in this life is the Gospel. 

There is an aspect of the whole discussion that just now strikes me. It is easy to so emphasize heaven as our future, that you get this "golden ticket" mentality, and endlessly debate who gets or doesn't get the "golden ticket". What we receive in this life (a new and living spirit, and the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit) is so amazing that it is worth EVERYTHING! We receive a piece of heaven on earth now, as a guarantee of the future entire inheritance. Whatever we have to do to share this with a sick and desperate world is worth it all. Maybe we need to think of it like this: New Life now is the best thing anyone can get, and BONUS....it's forever!!!! 

Just some thoughts, Andy

Hi Andy,

 

I like your comment about the "golden ticket".  Too often we think of "confession in Christ" as a sort of "password" that gets us into heaven.  No.  It is not (primarily) faith, but the atoning work of Christ, that "gets us into heaven".  Of course, it is through faith that we participate in that atoning work; but too often we forget about that side of equation and only focus on the subjective "I believe side".  I can believe a frozen pound will support me all I want; until it cracks and I drown--my faith in the pound did nothing.  It is CHRIST that is the most important part of the equation in salvation; a relationship, a transforming relationship.

 

I would only (and barely!!!) disagree on one point, and probably because I misunderstood you: yes, the New Life now in Christ is the greatest thing we can have....in this life.  Of course, in the resurrected life that New LIfe will be fulfilled....but I think we are stepping into semantics and that we both agree.

 

clb

Edited February 11, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[enoob57]

There is a distinct and dividing reality in these posts: 'I think' verses 'God says'...
Nothing can be manipulated past this or around this there 'IS' only One Judge
-> Thus sayeth The Lord <-

-As when we die we will be in The Presence of Jesus The Lord of All! 2Cor 5:6-8
-In this initial presence all lie will be gone and only the presentation
of His Word will be accepted!Jn 17:17-19
-We are born sin in a place of sin! Rom 3:23-26; 1Jn 2:16-17
-We must be born into the truth above so that it is our life (New Birth)Jn 3:3-8
-It is accomplished in the work of Jesus by His Life, Death, and Resurrection ... 1Cor 15:1-10
-There are many points of view but only one way into Heaven through Jesus 'The Gospel Embodied' Jn 14:6; Jn 10;1-18

I am thru prayer and hope that everyone understands we have to look outside of ourselves to His
Word and eat it and drink it as our lives depend upon it... if not or you do not hear His Words
or believe you can use the works of your hands formed out of a sin ridden body thus using the
unpardonable sin as evil being your justification for the life God has offered ->you will have this
reality- The One (Jesus The Christ) spoke this:
Matt 7:21-27
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in
that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out
devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth
these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his
house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew,
and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every
one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a
foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the
floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was
the fall of it.
KJV
Love, Steven

[anthonyjmcgirr]

I wish people would stop putting God in a box by declaring they know EXACTLY how He would reveal Himself to man.  His is above our understanding. 

 

Jesus is the earthly name we give Him because that's what He was called when He was here. Before He was born, what was His name? He's had thousands.  He simply told the forefathers "I Am".  I've even been taught the original pronunciation of what they called God has died and we do not know.  God makes Himself known in His own ways.  We do not know that the Great Spirit the Native Americans spoke of was not God.  They had no access to bibles.  We don't know if God didn't reveal Himself to all the different tribes and tongues across the globe.  I believe the evidence suggests that He did. 

[Guest]

I wish people would stop putting God in a box by declaring they know EXACTLY how He would reveal Himself to man.  His is above our understanding. 

 

Jesus is the earthly name we give Him because that's what He was called when He was here.

 

Before He was born, what was His name?

 

He's had thousands. 

 

He simply told the forefathers "I Am". 

 

I've even been taught the original pronunciation of what they called God has died and we do not know. 

 

God makes Himself known in His own ways. 

 

We do not know that the Great Spirit the Native Americans spoke of was not God. 

 

They had no access to bibles. 

 

We don't know if God didn't reveal Himself to all the different tribes and tongues across the globe. 

 

I believe the evidence suggests that He did. 

 

 

~

 

Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: Colossians 1:6

 

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Colossians 1:23

 

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Psalms 19:1-4

 

~

 

Stand Fast

 

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

 

Beloved

 

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Revelation 2:17

 

You'll Get It In The End

 

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

 

[enoob57]

I wish people would stop putting God in a box by declaring they know EXACTLY how He would reveal Himself to man.  His is above our understanding. 

 

Jesus is the earthly name we give Him because that's what He was called when He was here. Before He was born, what was His name? He's had thousands.  He simply told the forefathers "I Am".  I've even been taught the original pronunciation of what they called God has died and we do not know.  God makes Himself known in His own ways.  We do not know that the Great Spirit the Native Americans spoke of was not God.  They had no access to bibles.  We don't know if God didn't reveal Himself to all the different tribes and tongues across the globe.  I believe the evidence suggests that He did.

This is why you are to study to show yourself approved!

John 5:22-23

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

KJV

Phil 2:9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

KJV

these two verses alone take us into the eternal state past all judgment and What Name 'IS' lifted up?

Jesus

So upon the studied we do know... don't we! Love, Steven

[RustyAngeL]

Who is going to hell?All those who do not believe in Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible.

I would add to that statement.  Even the enemy believes in Jesus.  You need to more then just believe.  You must ask God for forgiveness of your sins, than ask Jesus into your heart to be your savior.  Then walk this gift of salvation everyday.  If you reject Jesus as Lord and Savior of your life then yes you will go to hell.  God has given us a free will and we have a choice.  We choose Jesus our eternity is in Heaven we  reject Jesus our eternity is in hell.   I want people to know the truth.

 

Because He Lives!  Rustyangel

[genesisjks]

 

 Who is to say who is right and who is wrong.  Each relationship with Christ is a personal one and if it is right for you well, then its right for you.

 

Stay in the love & the light. God Bless.

 

 

Who is to say who is right or who is wrong?  Jesus Himself...'

 

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

 

Anyone who is not saved and hasn't accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior is NOT going to heaven, my friend.  Works won't get you there, even if you're perfect in every way. Why do you argue against what is written, in plain words, in the Bible?

 

Hi MorningGlory peace be with you

I’m not arguing with what is written in the Bible I’m arguing with your interpretation of what is written in the Bible. Yes Jesus wants us to go through him but where we differ is I think there are other options.  To save time her I will anticipate your response. This is not Biblical ETC. Here are the biblical quotes that you should already know and choose to ignore because they do not agree with your theology.

 

When Jesus was on the cross he told one of the criminal that today he would be with him in paradise. The criminal was not born again in Christ but still he would go to heaven.  That goes against your theology

What did Jesus do or say about the people who mocked, tortured and crucified him.  Did he dam them to hell just like you and some of the folks on this wonderful forum said about non Christians who are not born again?

Luke 23:34 Forgive them for they do not no what they are doing.  No Jesus forgave them. Would he forgive them and then dam them to hell.  I don’t think so but maybe you do.  This is why there are so many different Christian beliefs.  This merciful deed speaks a multitude to me. He is saying that people can not be held responsible for what they do when they do not no what they are doing wrong or they think what they are doing is right. Can it be written more plainly than that.  I could also say to you Why do you argue against what is written, in plain words, in the Bible?

But I wouldn’t be so bold because if the bible was in plain words then there would be only one Christian belief not many.

Also when a person says others are dammed or will not go to Heaven they are judging them (Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.)  When you say things like that you are putting yourself above them or putting yourself first and them last.  If you know your bible you know the quote from Jesus that comes to mind about first and last.

I will not suggest that you read you bible but I will suggest that you rethink your answers before judging others who have read their bible but have not come to the same conclusion as yourself.  In my opinion your theology does not make sense, if I am right does that mean you are dammed?   If he judges you as harshly as you judge others maybe you are damming yourself.  It is something you should think about very seriously.  It may be a while befor I respond to your reply to this as I am very busy this coming week.

 

Good night and God bless from Irish Guy. Stay in the love & the Light

Edited February 17, 2014 by genesisjks