GoldenEagle Posted November 3, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 3, 2013 Church membership, as opposed to just going to church? I have never been, or been made a "member" of a church. I am on the leadership team of my church but have never signed anything or been read anything that denotes me as a "member". We kind of just attend, most of us for 10 years or more and we don't talk about members in our church at all. So simple question. What is this member thing as opposed to long term attendance? I would imagine it really depends on where you've gone to church brother. But I'd like to bring some passages to the discussion if I may... Hebrews 13:17 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. For context check out Hebrews 13... This brings up 3 questions in my mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted November 3, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 3, 2013 Question 1: If there is no understanding of local church membership, then who are we to submit to and obey? First, if there is no biblical requirement to belong a local church, then which leaders should an individual Christian obey and submit to? This begs the question, if there is no understanding of local church membership, then who are we to submit to and obey? Is the submission to anyone with the title “elder” or "pastor" from any church? Should we as Christians obey and submit to those very special people at Westboro Baptist Church? Fun stuff to think about there. Besides Heb. 13:17 there's also the passage in 1 Tim. 5... Elders who rule well. Who are they? I would submit it is those who labor in preaching and teaching in the local church.1 Tim. 5:1717 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. Full context 1 Timothy 5... Second, who will a pastor/bishop/elder give an account for? Elders should not lead under compulsion but willingly under the direction of the Holy Spirit, not for shameful gain but eagerly loving people, not be domineering but being examples of Christ's love. This is to be done in waiting for the Chief Shepherd - Jesus Christ. And those of us who are younger are to be subject to the elders. How does that work out? Respecting the positional and spiritual authority God places in our lives - having humility. Something at least for me is really tough. Maybe for others it isn't? 1 Peter 5:1-5 1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” All of 1 Peter 5 in context... Then also there's those fierce wolves who would come in and rise amongst the Body speaking twisted things... Will they have to give an account? Acts 20:29-30 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.Acts 20 in context... Third, so I believe that the elders at the local church I'm a member of are responsible for those who attend our church. They're NOT responsible for everyone in the city, county, state or country. But they are responsible for those God has entrusted to their care. Does this make sense from a Biblical standpoint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted November 3, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 3, 2013 Question 2. What about Church Discipline regarding Church Membership? Probably the clearest example is in 1 Cor. 5:1-12. Please see the link as it is very long to quote here. In this Scripture Paul confronts the church in Corinth for approving of a man walking in blatant, unrepentant sexual immorality. The Corinthians are celebrating this as God’s grace... Seriously? But Paul warns them that this type of wickedness shouldn’t make them boast, but rather mourn. He calls them arrogant and tells them to remove this man for the destruction of his flesh and the hopeful salvation of his soul. In verses 11-12, his words hit home I think:1 Cor. 5:11-1211 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? It has been my sad and frustrating experience that very few churches truly still practice church discipline. The logical question out of this passage is pretty simple: How can you kick someone “out” if there isn’t an “in”? If there is no local commitment to a covenant community of faith, then how do you remove someone from that community of faith? Church discipline won’t work if local church membership doesn’t exist. It's really that simple. Another passage that comes to mind... I'm sure this one was probably the first passage that came to mind to some when this second question was asked. Jesus Himself spoke about taking issues before the Church in verse 17. And this passage in verse 19/20 has to do with church discipline in context and NOT Christ's presence as it is very misused by Christians today. Christ is present through the Holy Spirit in every Believer. These verses are a pet peeve of mine as a side note...Matthew 18:15-20 15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosedin heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” If there is no local church or church membership (where people recognize the authority of the elders in Christ) who do we take issues of church discipline to? Your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AFlameOfFire Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Why did God get angry at David numbering Israel though? It always feels like being numbered or something. And it might not be the case in the US so much but records of names in times of persecution wouldnt really wise, I always try to stay out of someone elses filing cabinet. lol, I couldnt resist GE (how you doing bro?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted November 3, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 3, 2013 Question #3: is there Biblical support for Church membership? I would say there are other evidences others than the questions I've already presented to support local church membership in the Scriptures. (For the sake of space I'll just link the passages...) In Acts 2:37-47, there is a numerical record of those who have professed Christ and been filled with the Holy Spirit (v. 41) and an acknowledgement that the church was tracking the growth (v. 47). How do you view this passage? In Acts 6:1-6, elections take place in order to address a specific problem and an accusation. How do you view this passage? In Romans 16:1-16, we shown what appears to be an awareness of who is a church member. How do you view this passage? In 1 Timothy 5:3-16, we are shown a clear teaching on how to handle widows in the church... In this passage (and in particular verses 9-13) we are shown the criteria for who would or would not qualify for Ephesus’s "widow care program". The local church in Ephesus was organized and they were working out a plan with guidance of the Holy Spirit. How do you view this passage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AFlameOfFire Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 Actually, being taken into an account in the number of widows probrobly makes the best case for it. Though I would still say the Holy Ghost is the one that makes you a member of the church in the truest sense because one can still have their name in the filing cabinet of a church (where the wheat and tares grow together) and yet not really be a member of Jesus Christ (in holding to the head) in the truest sense of a member. Though I have seen it used to harrass members for more money. Headcounting not so much for good purposes (to care for others) such as widows (or them being overlooked) in the sense of distribution, but contrarywise, harrassing as far as collecting. Almost like a collection agency might. If you know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boash Posted November 4, 2013 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/13/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted November 4, 2013 We are not members of the church we attend. It's Baptist and although we agree with most positions they hold to we don't agree with all. By joining I would feel obligated to hold or adhere to, which honestly in all good conscience I could not do. I mean for instance let's say you got involved with youth, as a member I believe you would be expected to endorse that particular denominations beliefs whether or not you agreed with it. We enjoy the fellowship and the pastors teachings, we get involved with everything that we are allowed to do, many of them things the large percentage of the membership as a whole doesn't even bother with. But when it comes to a lot of positions in the church are concerned we are excluded from them. Take daycare for example, although they continually plead for help and my mother in law has repeatedly volunteered. And although she is a long time day care professional she is refused on the basis of not being a member. Now keep in mind she and my father in law have been going there twice as long as my wife and I, then say someone who has been attending for say 3 months and joins can, now which of the two do you think they should know more about. It almost seems as they use it as a punishment. The pastor and I have met several times and have good conversations and he feels we are pretty comparable on most things and wishes he could have me involved with............if only I would join. My question is why can't I? These types of things regarding membership don't make sense to me but then again it's not my call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted November 4, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 545 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 116 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/16/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 4, 2013 Golden Eagle Church discipline won’t work if local church membership doesn’t exist. It's really that simple. Why would one have to have their name written in a membership book to be part of that fellowship.? I was part of a large fellowship who never kept a record of the folk who attended the meetings...discipline was metered out and received as it ought to have been...order in the meetings clearly evident we were all accountable to the Elders no problem at all... I really don't see the reason for having your name in a record book..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted November 4, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 4, 2013 The church I was going to was always asking for money for something or other. For perspective the local church often has expenses: utilities (lights, power for sound equipment, water, etc), rent (or mortgage depending on how the church is set up), general ministry costs (often times children's ministries provide snacks for kids, toys, teaching materials, daipers/wet wipes for babies, etc.), missions (local outreaches such as soup lines, food assistence, evangelism, etc and international missions such as supporting missionaries or short-term mission trips), and finally the wages of ministers (Teaching Pastor(s), Youth Minister, Music Minister, Children's Minister, Senior Adults Minister, etc.). All these things cost money. If I participate or visit a local church I try to give something when I go... We pay money for entertainment (i.e. TV, Internet, etc.), we pay money for our living expenses (rent, utlities, food, etc)... Why are people so resistant to helping with church related expenses? Curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted November 4, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.79 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted November 4, 2013 I was attending a wonderful big popular church..My daughter was going with me.We were told several things to do to become a member of the church which were really wanted to do.It took us alot of time to achieve these things.Then the night came when the members were recognized.My daughter and I were really looking forward to it.But when we opened the program we noticed that our names were not on it.We asked one of the Elders.He said "Oh no you have to be interviewed by the elders".Not only was i disillusioned but I was highly disappionted and so was my daughter.We said forget it.We will just attend.I don't think Jesus would like that. Seems like there was a misunderstanding Sister. Either it was explained well or you didn't understand all that membership entailed? Or perhaps something else. However, I do sympathize with the frustration. On the other hand most churches require some sort of meeting with an elder/minister/pastor. The reason for this is most churches want people to understand what salvation is (depending on the previous church membership particularly if it was a different denomination) and becoming a member is a great opportunity to share the Gospel. It is also a good opportunity for a potential member to connect with the church leadership. Then church membership never saved anybody... However, some people and/or denominations teach this. So really it's a safe guard and it also allows the leadership to meet with members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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