is natural selection atheistic?

[enoob57]

That is what Shiloh is saying the very begin of thought to natural selection is in that thought error... and try as everyone may

wrong will never be made right no matter how many twist and turns with imagined acceptability's you place with it!

[enoob57]

So from our friend Wiki here is a working definition of what natural selection is:

"Natural selection is the gradual process by which biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment. It is a key mechanism of evolution. The term "natural selection" was popularized by Charles Darwin who intended it to be compared with artificial selection, which is now called selective breeding."

 

Now no doubt there are many evolutionists out there who would be angered at the notion that God could be behind natural selection, but is there anything about this notion that inherently precludes the idea? I don't see how. Insofar as I understand 'nature' to be the totality of physical stuff operating according to physical laws, I can easily imagine natural selection working on a population. How is God involved? God created the laws and the stuff, with full knowledge of what would go down. If God directly intercedes and suspends the laws He created, it's not longer natural selection at work, but I see no reason to think that natural selection couldn't be in operation most of the time.

 

As an aside, as a theistic evolutionist I am not committed to the notion that God can't or doesn't intercede more actively than this. My contention is merely that the way species of life arise is usually through this 'natural' way.

A good look at the nature of evil is turning the supernatural to natural ... all that we see came not from what it is in itself but God's Will through ordered Word fashioned

to point to Himself that which has always in Spirit Existed.... Even the element of energy defined that which cannot be created or destroyed lays not at the finality of Essence

but is still just a pointer to that which cannot be confined in thought or example but always an increase or decrease for size or amount is non relative to reality of Infinite

Spirit. The humility is thus waiting upon God as our increase- an increase is not predicated upon our own effort but yielded child like realization to the Truth that creation

points toward... in other words a willingness to see as it is shown and live within the confines God Himself has placed us in as beginning .... creation Word plus written

Word = 'IS' and as this all increases in walk and wisdom it is proportionate as our algebraic laws set forth in reason dictates thus producing the commons sense of the eternal

nature of things as pointers to but in themselves only as indicators but not of that Eternal Essence. For the beginning is bound by our own becoming when BUT when left to

His Word

Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

KJV

 This demands the platform from which His Words rest In Him before our begin (as our begin in His Word) in total reliance upon His Word and not our own beginning...

For due to sin this world and all it's created element passes away and never again will be... thus the farthest sight of this Infinite Reality belonging solely to God and His

Word states (New) Heaven and Earth and as now our minds are cluttered with error and we need continual washing with His Word to increase in usefulness to Him but

when this time, when sin is no more, we will be enlarged to understand fully even as we are fully known.... Love, Steven

[alphaparticle]

 

 

If natural selection cannot be suspended to allow divine intervention, than the entire enterprise of science is necessarily anti theistic. 

God can suspend any natural process. So long as natural processes happen the *vast majority of the time* without intervention science goes just fine.

 

I agree, my point is that theistic evolution is an acceptable position to take. Science only works if we assume that whatever we are studying is not messed with by a supernatural being. Exceptions are just part of any scientific explanation when we talk about the natural world. So when we talk about the supernatural world who are we to say that supernatural exceptions can't happen? I would argue that we can't, and I would do so either from the presupposition of empiricism or theism. 

 

So when someone says that natural selection can't happen because of God, what natural selection really is is an emergent property of physical phenomena (if you think about it, a world with limited resources is going to supply those who (compared to others) have an advantage on getting those resources, and really natural selection or evolution is just a restatement of those truisms combined with modern scientific understanding), so by saying God cannot interfere with the natural selection process you are essentially stating that science is antithetical to theism or that you are relegating God to a deistic position. 

 

Alright. I agree with your assessment here. To say *in principle* that natural selection must be atheistic has global implications for our ability to say there are any 'natural' occurrences and therefore to do science at all. Interesting D9.

[Qnts2]

 

 

Now no doubt there are many evolutionists out there who would be angered at the notion that God could be behind natural selection, but is there anything about this notion that inherently precludes the idea?

The entire theory of Evolution is at odds with God's omniscience.   It problematic because it assumes an imperfect creation, but God is incapable of creating imperfection, as there is no imperfection in Him.  Current imperfections are the result of sin.

 

In addition, the creation account is supernatural whereas "natural" selection is predicated not only on there being no supernatural causality, but also no supernatural guidance.  The Bible teaches that God guides and sustains creation.  Naturalism precludes super-naturalism.

 

 

There are two kinds of evolution: micro and macro. Micro-evolution notes changes within a species which occur due to natural selection, or the survivability given the habitat, intentional breeding, climate, or predators. Macro-evolution assumes that over and extended period of time, one species can evolve into a new or different species. Macro-evolution is not biblical while there is nothing in scripture which would go against micro-evolution.

 

God did indeed create perfection, but since the fall, creation growns. Disease entered the world. Natural disastors now occur. Predators now exist. And man has invented. I would have to think on it a bit more, but I think micro-evolution actually started with the fall. Micro-evolution occurs at least partly, or mostly because of natural selection.

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now no doubt there are many evolutionists out there who would be angered at the notion that God could be behind natural selection, but is there anything about this notion that inherently precludes the idea?

The entire theory of Evolution is at odds with God's omniscience.   It problematic because it assumes an imperfect creation, but God is incapable of creating imperfection, as there is no imperfection in Him.  Current imperfections are the result of sin.

 

In addition, the creation account is supernatural whereas "natural" selection is predicated not only on there being no supernatural causality, but also no supernatural guidance.  The Bible teaches that God guides and sustains creation.  Naturalism precludes super-naturalism.

 

There is no problem with omniscience here. When God created the physical laws of the world He knew precisely what would happen. He sets the constants just so, the amount of energy just so, the initial conditions just so, so that exactly what He wanted to happen would. I see no conflict here.

 

Also, if you read my initial post I made allowances for God's active participation in the larger process. It is merely the larger process that I claim that God *allows* to happen 'naturally'.

 

That's why Theistic Evolution is an oxymoron.   The entire point of a naturalistic theory is that it is wholly natural, meaning that there is no room for anykind of divine intervention or involvement. Stop trying monkey around with the theory.

 

Thesitic Evolution wants to put God into a theory that precludes God.  You either believe the Bible, or you don't.  Be an evolutionist or be a  Christian.  Stop trying to live with one foot in the world and one foot in the Kingdom. You can't have evolution and Christianity. It simply doesn't work that way.

 

I deny that evolution has to be *naturalistic*. That is the entire premise of my OP. Look at the OP definition of natural selection again. Populations that change in response to natural pressures. Insofar as I define natural to being 'things left alone based on the basic physical laws that God created' I see no inherent contradiction between evolution and Christianity whatsoever.

 

 

Really???  Is that science?   Could we teach theistic evolution in the classroom?   The beauty of the Theory of Evolution to the atheist is that is gives them an alternative to blieving that God created the earth/universe.   Richard Dawkins said as much when he said that Evolution makes an atheist a more fulfilled atheist.

 

The heart of how people view Evolution is that it is depends on no intelligent causality.  According to the conventional view, Evolution is not the product of any deity or intelligence of any kind.   Evolution simply moves along naturally and is not the invention of God or any gods.  To deny that is to be rather dishonest about the theory and how it is applied on a regular basis.

 

Insofar as I define natural to being 'things left alone based on the basic physical laws that God created' I see no inherent contradiction between evolution and Christianity whatsoever.

 

But as a believer in God, and one who claims to be a Christian, you are bound by the how the Bible reveals God.  You don't get to make up your own definitions.   The Bible doesn't portray God as having created physical laws and then having no involvement with them.  The universe is not a wind up toy that God watches as it tottles around the floor. God, according to the Bible is intimately involved in the world He created.

 

The Bible is the story of redemption. It is the story of God guiding and shaping history in order to prepare the way for the coming of Christ.  It reveals a God who is not a passive observer, but rather is an active participant in history, from from various acts of judgment, freeing his people from slavery, establishing a nation, sending prophets.  and all of this culiminating in Jesus being born of a virgin and dying for the sins of mankind.  The Bible says that God feeds the birds and clothes the fields, that He is controls wind and the rain.  It says He even knows the stars by name.   Read Job 32-42 to get an idea of just how intimately involved God is with creation.   He guides and sustains it all; He micro-manages the whole universe right down to the last molecule.

 

Theistic Evolution is as oxymoronic as "Atheistic Christianity."   Evolution is predicated on a scenario that precludes an intelligent impetus or causality from beginning to end. Theistic Evolution is a dishonest approach to the Theory of Evolution and it is rejection of basic Christian and biblical teachings of nature and operations of God as revealed in Scripture.

 

The character of God comes into question when one takes the evolutionary position.  I find it interesting that liberals sit in judgment on God's morality when it comes to the issues of slavery and the deaths of Canaanite children and the way they seek to undermine the notion of a loving God on that basis.   Yet, they are perfectly comfortable believing that God created a process that results in billions of years of pain, suffering, death and disease of both man and beast. 

 

In Theistic Evolution,  God kills those who are unfit.  In the Bible, God gives His life for those who are unfit to make them fit for a relationship with Him.  The two perspectives could not be more opposite.  

 

Theistic Evolution is moral and intellectual contradition.  It is neither science, nor is it Chrisitan. 

 

Oh, I believe that God knows every particle in my body. I see no problem with that. But He also seems content to allow my body, my surroundings etc to almost always go according to some preset order, that I believe God created. If that were not so, then we couldn't do science at all. But, we do, and we do it very successfully, so I think I am correct in inferring that God typically seems to allow His created order to play out. Natural selection is just a way of describing some of those 'naturally occurring' phenomena.

 

As far as whether or not theistic evolution would ever be taught in the classroom, what's that to me or the debate? I already granted at the beginning that many atheists will prima facie deny that evolution allows for God's active participation- I just think they are completely mistaken.

 

Theistic evolution does not have moral implications. I'm not sure what to make of your jump there. It's descriptive.

[gray wolf]

That is what Shiloh is saying the very begin of thought to natural selection is in that thought error... and try as everyone may

wrong will never be made right no matter how many twist and turns with imagined acceptability's you place with it!

Please refer to peppered moth illustration in Are they all going to hell? discussion. We had a pretty lively exchange as to whether or not that is natural selection.  As for God's active role in the physical universe, just what is He doing?  I do not ask this to be irreverent, I am just wondering what He does for example with a sunrise or plant germinating?  

 

There is a Muslim cleric (forgot his name) who holds that God manages everything down to the molecule.  Nothing happens without God causing it.  I do not think that is what is being advanced here?

Edited November 26, 2013 by gray wolf

[jerryR34]

 

 

Now no doubt there are many evolutionists out there who would be angered at the notion that God could be behind natural selection, but is there anything about this notion that inherently precludes the idea?

The entire theory of Evolution is at odds with God's omniscience.   It problematic because it assumes an imperfect creation, but God is incapable of creating imperfection, as there is no imperfection in Him.  Current imperfections are the result of sin.

 

In addition, the creation account is supernatural whereas "natural" selection is predicated not only on there being no supernatural causality, but also no supernatural guidance.  The Bible teaches that God guides and sustains creation.  Naturalism precludes super-naturalism.

 

The Creation was perfect, man introduced imprefection by his actions....

[gray wolf]

I am still not getting something here, although Shiloh has been drilling on it.  The imperfections are a result of sin.  So the tapeworm was a result of sin, or did it preexist in a benign condition (which I have trouble envisioning)?  Are plate tectonics imperfections since they result in earthquakes and tsunamis?  I can grasp death and some types of illness as the result of the Fall; that is what the Bible leads us to believe.

[jerryR34]

I am still not getting something here, although Shiloh has been drilling on it.  The imperfections are a result of sin.  So the tapeworm was a result of sin, or did it preexist in a benign condition (which I have trouble envisioning)?  Are plate tectonics imperfections since they result in earthquakes and tsunamis?  I can grasp death and some types of illness as the result of the Fall; that is what the Bible leads us to believe.

As i understand it, even the plants did not have thorns until the fall, so, no pun intended, all hell broke loose after origianal sin.

[Guest]

I am still not getting something here, although Shiloh has been drilling on it.  The imperfections are a result of sin.  So the tapeworm was a result of sin, or did it preexist in a benign condition (which I have trouble envisioning)?  Are plate tectonics imperfections since they result in earthquakes and tsunamis?  I can grasp death and some types of illness as the result of the Fall; that is what the Bible leads us to believe.

 

 

Look Back

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

Look Forward

 

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Revelation 21:5-6

 

See Jesus

 

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:7-8

 

~

 

Want To Know

 

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6

 

To Really Really Know

 

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:3

 

Open Open Open

 

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

 

Open Open

 

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

 

Open

 

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

 

~

 

Believers Know

 

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

 

This Old Earth Is Sick

 

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

 

For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. in the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

 

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. Romans 8:22-27 (NIV)

 

And Man's Sin Is The Cause

 

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

 

And The LORD Jesus Is The Cure, Forevermore

 

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:3-5

 

You See?

 

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34

 

~

 

Believe

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Love, Joe