Evolution as taught in Colleges and Universities

[alphaparticle]

 

Lewontin is criticizing specifically the notion of 'natural selection' as useful, not whether or not evolution as I just defined it happened or is falsifiable or testable. Those are two different topics altogether.

 

What else is there besides Natural Selection with evolution?  And....

 

"Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection in particular is hopelessly metaphysical......"

Richard Lewontin

 

It sure sounds like he's including the whole theory here.  No?  It also sounds like he's relating it to a Religion, which echoes....

 

"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today."

Michael Ruse; How evolution became a religion; creationists correct? National Post May 13 2000

 

This is quite Profound.......

 

"Then, sometimes from the same person, you have evolution as secular religion, generally working from an explicitly materialist background and solving all of the world's major problems, from racism to education to conservation. Consider Edward O. Wilson, rightfully regarded as one of the most outstanding professional evolutionary biologists of our time, and the author of major works of straight science. In his On Human Nature, he calmly assures us that evolution is a myth that is now ready to take over Christianity."

Michael Ruse: Science, March 7 2003 p. 1524

 

"Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you’ve experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that’s true of me, and I think it’s true of a good many of you in here."

Dr. Colin Patterson (Senior Palaeontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London). Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, New York City, 5 November, 1981

 

The quote mining thing is peculiar. I'm not accusing you in particular, but it's something I've noticed creationists like to do for some reason.

 

alright, there is more to evolution than natural selection, and how that is understood can be made more or less specific. My definition actually didn't specify how it happened, I merely stated common descent. Really ultimately I think nowadays all agree that evolution is about the statistics of genetic material. There are questions about the 'unit of selection', debates about punctuated equilibrium, the role of genetic drift, and so on. There is debate about specifics of evolution, and how to define natural selection and understand it is debated by people who see evolution as a biological fact about the world, and are trying to define the terms for the theory.

[gray wolf]

It seems to me that more is being made of evolution than what it is.  Is it nonChristian to believe in the Big Bang as well?  Or the theory of relativity?  The unbeliever will be affected less by your creation arguments than by the Presence of Christ in your life.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

Lewontin is criticizing specifically the notion of 'natural selection' as useful, not whether or not evolution as I just defined it happened or is falsifiable or testable. Those are two different topics altogether.

 

What else is there besides Natural Selection with evolution?  And....

 

"Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection in particular is hopelessly metaphysical......"

Richard Lewontin

 

It sure sounds like he's including the whole theory here.  No?  It also sounds like he's relating it to a Religion, which echoes....

 

"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today."

Michael Ruse; How evolution became a religion; creationists correct? National Post May 13 2000

 

This is quite Profound.......

 

"Then, sometimes from the same person, you have evolution as secular religion, generally working from an explicitly materialist background and solving all of the world's major problems, from racism to education to conservation. Consider Edward O. Wilson, rightfully regarded as one of the most outstanding professional evolutionary biologists of our time, and the author of major works of straight science. In his On Human Nature, he calmly assures us that evolution is a myth that is now ready to take over Christianity."

Michael Ruse: Science, March 7 2003 p. 1524

 

"Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you’ve experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that’s true of me, and I think it’s true of a good many of you in here."

Dr. Colin Patterson (Senior Palaeontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London). Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, New York City, 5 November, 1981

 

The quote mining thing is peculiar. I'm not accusing you in particular, but it's something I've noticed creationists like to do for some reason.

 

alright, there is more to evolution than natural selection, and how that is understood can be made more or less specific. My definition actually didn't specify how it happened, I merely stated common descent. Really ultimately I think nowadays all agree that evolution is about the statistics of genetic material. There are questions about the 'unit of selection', debates about punctuated equilibrium, the role of genetic drift, and so on. There is debate about specifics of evolution, and how to define natural selection and understand it is debated by people who see evolution as a biological fact about the world, and are trying to define the terms for the theory.

 

 

Quote mining?

 

Can you please define "Qoute Mining" and the implied derogatory slant along with it?

 

It's called backing up assertions by documented "Cited" sources.  How else, on this medium or any other for that matter, would you go about such a task other than to CITE sources?

 

"There is debate about specifics of evolution, and how to define natural selection and understand it is debated by people who see evolution as a biological fact about the world"

 

I would imagine after 150 years, evolutionists might have some idea what it IS Specifically to come to a conclusion that it's a biological fact.  How can you come to a conclusion of fact without defining something very specifically?

 

"Really ultimately I think nowadays all agree that evolution is about the statistics of genetic material."

 

You have Genetic Variation and Mutations (Spelling errors in the Instruction Manual) and that's pretty much it.  Genetic Drift, along with Mutations, is a losing Information process.

[gray wolf]

I'm not convinced.  Creationism seems to me to be defined by what it is NOT.  It is not evolution, it is not the Big Bang, etc.  But I have yet to see convincing hypotheses of what it is, exactly.  Much effort is expended to attacking evolution and cosmology, but nothing is really advanced in their place as mechanisms to explain what we see around us.  Yes, of course God is behind it all.

[Enoch2021]

It seems to me that more is being made of evolution than what it is.  Is it nonChristian to believe in the Big Bang as well?  Or the theory of relativity?  The unbeliever will be affected less by your creation arguments than by the Presence of Christ in your life.

 

I'm assuming you are talking to me? 

 

Well, I have no ill will towards alpha whatsoever.  He has commented that he is a theistic evolutionist and has stated that evolution is a fact.  I have a background in the sciences and first hand experiences with some of the material that I feel he has been mislead on.  IMHO evolution is contradictory to the WORD of GOD according to Genesis and the Corinthians Passage I quoted to him on another thread and was merely backing up my assertions with cited references.

 

"Is it nonChristian to believe in the Big Bang as well?.....Or the theory of relativity"

 

That's not for me to Judge.

 

"The unbeliever will be affected less by your creation arguments than by the Presence of Christ in your life."

 

It's not my creation argument...it's GODS WORD.  Point taken on "the Presence of Christ in your life"....was there something in my points that led you to believe otherwise?

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

Lewontin is criticizing specifically the notion of 'natural selection' as useful, not whether or not evolution as I just defined it happened or is falsifiable or testable. Those are two different topics altogether.

 

What else is there besides Natural Selection with evolution?  And....

 

"Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection in particular is hopelessly metaphysical......"

Richard Lewontin

 

It sure sounds like he's including the whole theory here.  No?  It also sounds like he's relating it to a Religion, which echoes....

 

"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today."

Michael Ruse; How evolution became a religion; creationists correct? National Post May 13 2000

 

This is quite Profound.......

 

"Then, sometimes from the same person, you have evolution as secular religion, generally working from an explicitly materialist background and solving all of the world's major problems, from racism to education to conservation. Consider Edward O. Wilson, rightfully regarded as one of the most outstanding professional evolutionary biologists of our time, and the author of major works of straight science. In his On Human Nature, he calmly assures us that evolution is a myth that is now ready to take over Christianity."

Michael Ruse: Science, March 7 2003 p. 1524

 

"Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you’ve experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that’s true of me, and I think it’s true of a good many of you in here."

Dr. Colin Patterson (Senior Palaeontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London). Keynote address at the American Museum of Natural History, New York City, 5 November, 1981

 

The quote mining thing is peculiar. I'm not accusing you in particular, but it's something I've noticed creationists like to do for some reason.

 

alright, there is more to evolution than natural selection, and how that is understood can be made more or less specific. My definition actually didn't specify how it happened, I merely stated common descent. Really ultimately I think nowadays all agree that evolution is about the statistics of genetic material. There are questions about the 'unit of selection', debates about punctuated equilibrium, the role of genetic drift, and so on. There is debate about specifics of evolution, and how to define natural selection and understand it is debated by people who see evolution as a biological fact about the world, and are trying to define the terms for the theory.

 

 

Quote mining?

 

Can you please define "Qoute Mining" and the implied derogatory slant along with it?

 

It's called backing up assertions by documented "Cited" sources.  How else, on this medium or any other for that matter, would you go about such a task other than to CITE sources?

 

"There is debate about specifics of evolution, and how to define natural selection and understand it is debated by people who see evolution as a biological fact about the world"

 

I would imagine after 150 years, evolutionists might have some idea what it IS Specifically to come to a conclusion that it's a biological fact.  How can you come to a conclusion of fact without defining something very specifically?

 

"Really ultimately I think nowadays all agree that evolution is about the statistics of genetic material."

 

You have Genetic Variation and Mutations (Spelling errors in the Instruction Manual) and that's pretty much it.  Genetic Drift, along with Mutations, is a losing Information process.

 

I mean by quote mining a style of debate which is characterized by lots of quotes. It seems unnecessary and kind of peculiar to me but for some reason I see it in a lot of creationist stuff.

 

You can gain information if there is any increase in genetic information, in principle, allowable. Since you can see how that would happen this is at least in principle possible.

[gray wolf]

It seems to me that more is being made of evolution than what it is. Is it nonChristian to believe in the Big Bang as well? Or the theory of relativity? The unbeliever will be affected less by your creation arguments than by the Presence of Christ in your life.

I'm assuming you are talking to me?

Well, I have no ill will towards alpha whatsoever. He has commented that he is a theistic evolutionist and has stated that evolution is a fact. I have a background in the sciences and first hand experiences with some of the material that I feel he has been mislead on. IMHO evolution is contradictory to the WORD of GOD according to Genesis and the Corinthians Passage I quoted to him on another thread and was merely backing up my assertions with cited references.

"Is it nonChristian to believe in the Big Bang as well?.....Or the theory of relativity"

That's not for me to Judge.

"The unbeliever will be affected less by your creation arguments than by the Presence of Christ in your life."

It's not my creation argument...it's GODS WORD. Point taken on "the Presence of Christ in your life"....was there something in my points that led you to believe otherwise?

I did not mean it on a personal level with you. I was making a general observation based on my experience. I was not questioning your or Alpha's relationship to Christ. But my general fear that wanting to win the argument (not in this case) eclipses a more basic need.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

be amazed  - via google see www.evolutionvsGod.com - wincam

 

All this demonstrates is that Ray is completely ignorant when it comes to evolution, and that this is not a serious work in any respect. If Ray was actually serious about this he wouldn't be interviewing more students than professors, and he wouldn't be quote mining answers or only putting up snippets of clips when people try to explain something to him. 

 

 

First of all, he probably only interviewed the professors willing to grant interviews.  Ray was not explaining Evolution. It was the professors who were explaining it and in some cases were unable to support their own statements when asked questions they probably were not used to being asked.    The students were not equipped and were simply parroting what they had been told and when faced with the values aspect of their worldview were shown that their assumptions about human beings are connected to the kinds of values a person has.   

 

As for Hitler, he didn't understand evolution at all, even banned Darwin's own book on evolution the Origin of Species.

 

That is beside the point.   Hitler and Sanger were both of the opinion that human beings were just animals.  The first thing Hitler had to do was dehumanize his victims.  He called the Jews primates.  He propagandized the view (which comes directly from Evoluton) that the Jews were inferior primates that had to be exterminated.  The fact that he didn't understand evolution is irrelevant.  We are not saying that evolution  forced Hitler to do what he did.  The point is that the madness of Hitler is what can be unleashed on humanity when other human beings are devalued as nothing more than primates.   Margaret Sanger believed the same stuff about Africans.  Abortion was the product of a mindset that viewed other human beings as primates.  She influenced Hitler.  Hitler didn't go to a university and learn evolution.  He learned about how to dehumanize people and he learned from another  person who derived her view of humanity from the evolutionary view of humans as advanced primates.

 

The point is that those who promote the animalization of humanity, who view the human race as nothing more than animals or primates are the people who make people like Margaret Sanger and Hitler possible.   This view may not turn everyone into psychopaths and meglo-maniacs, but creates an environment where such people can exist and flourish.

 

A person who believes that God created man as a special creation in His image and made separate from the rest of the created order would never be able to do what Hitler or Sanger did.  That is one reason why the Christian worldview is superior in every way to a belief in Evolution.   It is why we can offer hope and purpose to people and why evolutionists can't.  We can idenitfy ourselves with a loving God who brings meaning and purpose to life and evolutionists can only identify with creatures that squat in a ditch, fling their poop at each and eat their young.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

It seems to me that more is being made of evolution than what it is. Is it nonChristian to believe in the Big Bang as well? Or the theory of relativity? The unbeliever will be affected less by your creation arguments than by the Presence of Christ in your life.

I'm assuming you are talking to me?

Well, I have no ill will towards alpha whatsoever. He has commented that he is a theistic evolutionist and has stated that evolution is a fact. I have a background in the sciences and first hand experiences with some of the material that I feel he has been mislead on. IMHO evolution is contradictory to the WORD of GOD according to Genesis and the Corinthians Passage I quoted to him on another thread and was merely backing up my assertions with cited references.

"Is it nonChristian to believe in the Big Bang as well?.....Or the theory of relativity"

That's not for me to Judge.

"The unbeliever will be affected less by your creation arguments than by the Presence of Christ in your life."

It's not my creation argument...it's GODS WORD. Point taken on "the Presence of Christ in your life"....was there something in my points that led you to believe otherwise?

I did not mean it on a personal level with you. I was making a general observation based on my experience. I was not questioning your or Alpha's relationship to Christ. But my general fear that wanting to win the argument (not in this case) eclipses a more basic need.

 

 

ok understand, and point well taken.  My style is direct and to the point....and on a medium such as this it's real easy to miscontrue intent.  There is no "winning"...  there is only TRUTH.  As mentioned, IMHO I feel his points and position on the matter of evolution and abiogenesis is scientifically untenable and I attempted to support my direct refutations with Cited Sources that clearly show this.

 

Thanks for your input on the matter

[gray wolf]

I don't feel that position is untenable. Science, self correcting as it is, will reveal the truth. And many creationists and scientists will be surprised. No need to dispense of the Scriptires, I think.