Ovedya Posted December 17, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted December 17, 2004 In addition to my last post, I would just like to say that those who are so adamently opposed to the OSAS doctrine, in my experience, have only a limited or, at best, an unbalanced understanding of these two aspects. For the most part they only focus on the judicial aspect. If you understand only the one aspect and not the other it is very easy to fall into the trap of believing that your salvation can be lost. But when you understand and appreciate fully both aspects, then you can have full assurance of your salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I posted this in another thread on this subject, and I am posting it here as well. I would like to add this about Eternal Security. I have come to see that the opponents of the doctrine do not understand it. Eternal Security properly understood is the idea that a committed Christian does not have to get saved over and over again when they sin. It is the belief that we are kept by the power of God especially when we fall. The litmus test of a true Christian is a changed heart and new desires. If a person is unrepentantly evil, and looks for ways to sin, and yet claims to be a Christian, they are only fooling themselves. It is one thing to fall in a moment of weakness. Most Christians have moments of weakness, moments of doubt and discouragement. It is another thing to live for the next sin in a wholly concupescient lifestyle. Eternal Security does not wash over wickedness. Eternal Security is NOT the belief that a person can sin as often as they wish, and have complete immunity due to the fact that they can never be unsaved. No respectable preacher or responsible proponent of this doctrine has ever asserted that Christians can indulge freely in sin, since they are eternally secure. Those who assert this false premise about Eternal Security are not being intellectually honest. Eternal Security assumes that you are sincerely trying to follow Christ and live as a Christian. Eternal Security simply teaches that when you stumble and fall in the sincere attempt at living for God, when you fall in a moment of weakness, that God's grace is there to forgive you and help you get back on the right track. One other thing. Eternal Security does not deny the possibility of apostitizing from the faith. Getting saved does not rob you of your free will. Anyone who is intellectually honest will admit that. Hebrews chapter 10 is all about warning Jews who have been saved, about committing apostasy and returning to the old sacrificial system, thus denying Christ. There needs to be a bit more honesty from the anti-OSASers in these types of debates. I do not believe that anti-OSASers, REALLY believe that we who hold to this doctrine are saying that adultery, pornography, lying, cheating, etc. is OK for a Christian since they are saved. It is a cheap shot on their part, an insult to everyone's intelligence, and I think they know it is not true, and really amounts to slander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Repent1 Posted December 18, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 18, 2004  Just thought I would add another point about the two aspects of sanctification that I mentioned above. I often use the terms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shammah Posted December 18, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 233 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/31/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 18, 2004 Grace is unmerited favor; But God must also leave us the choice to follow the leading of His Spirit and Word, whether written on our hearts or we see it in the Bible . The fear of the Lord and the Love of the Lord, and His chastisement, correcting us, is to keep leading us back in Love towards Him in repentance;is His Spirit working in us. But we have a choice, many choices, to follow in obedience or not. The Lord wanted and still wants a people who will willingly die to their own way, to follow His way; but the very act of continually dying to our way to follow him, is the Love, and person He is looking for. God knows that much of the world believes and would follow Him to some point; but as it is says in Revelations, some of the church is luke-warm, and will be spewed out because of they believe but not enough to repent and change their ways. God will never force you to do His will over your own ; you can have all the faith in Him in the world, but without His Love and His willing doing the works of righteousness through you, by your obedience to Him; your faith is dead. Agape; Ephraim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted December 19, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 407 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/09/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted December 19, 2004 Falling into sin does not mean that we are positionally removed from being before the throne of grace. There are two aspects to our salvation - positional and dispositional. Positionally, when we initially received the Lord's redemption, we were removed from the kingdom of the world - sanctified by the Lord's blood - and transferred into the kingdom of the heavens. Not only that, but dispositionally we have taken the Lord into us as life (Col. 3:4), and now He is cleansing us from all iniquity and purifying us to be His bride. This is all evident in the following verses: Rom. 5:8-10; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 15:16; 6:19; 22; 1 Cor. 6:11; 1:2; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:10; 14; 13:12; John 17:17 Therefore, positionally speaking, we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, Christ, and judicially forgiven for our trespasseses before God. This judicial redemption can never be revoked by God. Because it is a contractual obligation that God Himself has entered into with all who believe into the death of His Son. This one sacrifice is higher, deeper, and more significant than those of the old covenant. It is absolutely irrevocable. However, dispositional speaking it is possible to fall away from Christ, and return to the transgressions of our former life. However that blood which initially redeemed us from sin and judicially saved us, can still speak on our behalf (Heb. 12:2)! It is because of this blood that any believer, having fallen to the sins of the former life, can boldly approach the throne of grace to find grace and mercy for timely help (Heb. 4:6; 10:22; 7:25). We can come forward because of that blood shed once for all ( Heb. 7:27; cf. Heb. 9:15), and it is because of this blood that Christ has now become our Advocate (1 John 2:1). So it is not that Christ will remove His life from us the moment that we sin. But that we become deadened to the life of Christ when we sin. Yet regardless of our situation Christ is our Advocate with the Father. Finally, when we consider all of these things, the next verse in 1 Cor. 10 becomes so much more clear to us: "No temptation has taken you except that which is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow that you be tempted beyond what you are able, but will, with the temptation, also make the way out, that you may be able to endure it." (1 Cor. 10:13) This verse not only clearly disputes any argument to the contrary of OSAS, it confirms the reality of God's absolute control over the believer's environment! This verse confirms God's faithfulness to the believers (1 Cor. 1:9; 1 Thes. 5:24; 2 Thes. 3:3; Heb. 10:23; Deut. 7:9; Isa. 49:7). But it also tells us that in our temptations (or trials) God will make a way out for us! In other words, God will supply us in our time of need so that we can endure the trials of the world! Therefore, for God to allow us to fall into a situation where He would revoke his covenant with us means that He would cease to be a holy, righteous and omnipotent God! In short, to deny OSAS is to deny the iron-clad covenant that God has made with us through the blood of Christ! It is also to devalue the blood covenant that Christ established through His selfless and painful sacrifice. I am in awe. I am praising Jesus right now over what you have written. Thank-you so very much. warm regards -bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Repent1 Posted December 19, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/20/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 19, 2004  Falling into sin does not mean that we are positionally removed from being before the throne of grace. There are two aspects to our salvation - positional and dispositional. Positionally, when we initially received the Lord's redemption, we were removed from the kingdom of the world - sanctified by the Lord's blood - and transferred into the kingdom of the heavens. Not only that, but dispositionally we have taken the Lord into us as life (Col. 3:4), and now He is cleansing us from all iniquity and purifying us to be His bride. This is all evident in the following verses: Rom. 5:8-10; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 15:16; 6:19; 22; 1 Cor. 6:11; 1:2; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:10; 14; 13:12; John 17:17  Therefore, positionally speaking, we have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, Christ, and judicially forgiven for our trespasseses before God. This judicial redemption can never be revoked by God. Because it is a contractual obligation that God Himself has entered into with all who believe into the death of His Son. This one sacrifice is higher, deeper, and more significant than those of the old covenant. It is absolutely irrevocable.  However, dispositional speaking it is possible to fall away from Christ, and return to the transgressions of our former life. However that blood which initially redeemed us from sin and judicially saved us, can still speak on our behalf (Heb. 12:2)! It is because of this blood that any believer, having fallen to the sins of the former life, can boldly approach the throne of grace to find grace and mercy for timely help (Heb. 4:6; 10:22; 7:25). We can come forward because of that blood shed once for all ( Heb. 7:27; cf. Heb. 9:15), and it is because of this blood that Christ has now become our Advocate (1 John 2:1). So it is not that Christ will remove His life from us the moment that we sin. But that we become deadened to the life of Christ when we sin. Yet regardless of our situation Christ is our Advocate with the Father.  Finally, when we consider all of these things, the next verse in 1 Cor. 10 becomes so much more clear to us:  "No temptation has taken you except that which is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow that you be tempted beyond what you are able, but will, with the temptation, also make the way out, that you may be able to endure it." (1 Cor. 10:13)  This verse not only clearly disputes any argument to the contrary of OSAS, it confirms the reality of God's absolute control over the believer's environment!  This verse confirms God's faithfulness to the believers (1 Cor. 1:9; 1 Thes. 5:24; 2 Thes. 3:3; Heb. 10:23; Deut. 7:9; Isa. 49:7). But it also tells us that in our temptations (or trials) God will make a way out for us! In other words, God will supply us in our time of need so that we can endure the trials of the world!  Therefore, for God to allow us to fall into a situation where He would revoke his covenant with us means that He would cease to be a holy, righteous and omnipotent God!  In short, to deny OSAS is to deny the iron-clad covenant that God has made with us through the blood of Christ! It is also to devalue the blood covenant that Christ established through His selfless and painful sacrifice. I am in awe. I am praising Jesus right now over what you have written. Thank-you so very much. warm regards -bud <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Greetings, God bless [You said] This verse not only clearly disputes any argument to the contrary of OSAS, it confirms the reality of God's absolute control over the believer's environment! [My testimony] I agree that the all the verses which you have quoted are absolutely true, however the following verse, Hebrews 10;26-27 is equally true and in my opinion contradicts the OSAS concept. God will not break the covenant which he has established by the blood of Christ, but this covenant comes with conditions. God has always had conditions associted with the creation, from Adam (and before) to the last book of the bible: [Revelation 22:18-19] 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. But we as finite have the propensity to disobey and to become the unclean thing before God, it is, according to scripture our responsibility to be good stewards over the gift of forgiveness and to enter in through the strait (Difficult; stressful) gate [Matthew 7:13-14 13 Enter ye in at the strait (Difficult; stressful) gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.] [Equally true] [Hebrews 10:26-31] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. If you are a believer, you have surrendered your will to the will of God, and you seek diligently to be in obedience to the commands of God, humility and obedience are the key to continued fellowship with God. This is the only way that the verses that you have quoted apply. [John 3:17-21] 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation (blame), that light (truth) is come into the world, and men loved darkness (ignorance) rather than light (truth), because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest (visible), that they are wrought (formed) in God. [Luke 13:23-28] 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive ( exert much effort or energy; endeavor) to enter in at the strait (Difficult; stressful) gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Your brethren in Christ, Repent1.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Repent1, I agree that the all the verses which you have quoted are absolutely true, however the following verse, Hebrews 10;26-27 is equally true and in my opinion contradicts the OSAS concept. Your statement here, is incorrect. The passage you site in Hebrews does not contradict OSAS. Heb. 10:25-27 is talking about apostasy. This shows that the anti-OSAS crowd does not understand OSAS enough to refute it. Hebrews 10 is replete with warnings to Jewish believers not to apostitize and return to the old sacrificial system, thus denying Christ. That is the subject of that chapter. OSAS does not deny the possibility of apostasy. No one who is intellectually honest will say that a person who is saved cannot commit apostasy. OSAS does not even address the issue of apostasy. It is outside the scope of the doctrine. OSAS simply teaches that you do not have to get saved after EACH time you sin. It assumes that you are trying to live for the Lord, and teaches, that the grace of God is there to keep you if you do fall in a sincere attempt to serve Jesus. Christians can fall in a moment of weakness, or a season of discouragement. That is totally foreign in concept to the issues of Hebrews 10 So,There is NO contradiction. You are simply applying Scripture incorrectly to a issue that they do not address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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