If men got the Titus 2 Treatment…

[Guest Butero]

The problem, Butero, is that what I hear from you is the perspective I grew up with, the view that knew more about God's judgment and wrath than God's love and mercy; a view that left me emotionally abusing myself because I could never be good enough, no matter how hard I tried (one of the contributing factors to my chronic depression); a view of God as being in a constant state of anger.

 

Listening to your words, it comes across as if you would interpret Ex. 34:6-7 this way -

 

Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, who will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Yet He can be merciful and gracious, longsuffering , and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands who meet His conditions and standards, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.

What you grew up with was not as off as you make out.  You can continue to give examples like this, and I can turn around and give examples of someone being struck down by the hand of God.  You can't be good enough Nebula.  I figured we all recognized that.  Even though I believe we must strive to live right, I  by no means believe we can ever be good enough on our own without God's grace.  I believe that what God expects of us is to do our best to follow his commandments.  Notice that I said "our best."  That is not something unobtainable.  If he wanted us to do more than our best, I could see your point.  We are to abstain from willfully choosing to do wrong. 

[Guest Butero]

 

The example was given of Sarah calling her husband Abraham Lord. 

 

Around here, if people heard your wife calling you, "Lord," they would think you just came from the Renaissance Festival and forgot to get out of character.

 

 

But if you love your wife in ways that she feels loved, if you sacrifice your pride and dignity for her, if you serve her needs, if you meet her emotionally, if you make her feel like a queen and your greatest prize, if you pour all that you can into her happiness, if you learn to communicate your feelings to her when she does thing that hurt and upset you rather than communicating everything she did or does wrong, if you refrain from blame-shifting onto her, if you woe her with kindness rather than force her into submission - you will find her naturally respecting you, honoring you, revering you, kissing your feet, stroking your ego, making you the center of her world, doing all she can to make you happy out of gratitude.

 

It is not that I literally expect wives to call their husbands lord.  I am just saying that Biblically, he is her lord, as Jesus Christ is Lord over the entire church.  All this stuff about if you do this and if you do that doesn't undo the responsibility we have as individuals to obey God's Word.  You could have a vile man who treats his wife worse than Archie Bunker, and the wife is still supposed to treat him as her lord, and be obedient.  He shouldn't treat her that way, but I am just saying, if he does. 

[nebula]

What you grew up with was not as off as you make out.

If it is God's truth, why did it lead me to death and darkness and not to His life, peace, and joy?

You can continue to give examples like this, and I can turn around and give examples of someone being struck down by the hand of God.  You can't be good enough Nebula.  I figured we all recognized that.  Even though I believe we must strive to live right, I  by no means believe we can ever be good enough on our own without God's grace.  I believe that what God expects of us is to do our best to follow his commandments.  Notice that I said "our best."  That is not something unobtainable.  If he wanted us to do more than our best, I could see your point.  We are to abstain from willfully choosing to do wrong.

"God helps those who help themselves"?

I pray some day you come to experience how much God loves you.

[nebula]

It is not that I literally expect wives to call their husbands lord.  I am just saying that Biblically, he is her lord, as Jesus Christ is Lord over the entire church.  All this stuff about if you do this and if you do that doesn't undo the responsibility we have as individuals to obey God's Word.  You could have a vile man who treats his wife worse than Archie Bunker, and the wife is still supposed to treat him as her lord, and be obedient.  He shouldn't treat her that way, but I am just saying, if he does.

Yes, and there are many women living as slaves this way. You should desire her heart more than her show of reverence because she "has" to.

[Guest Butero]

 

What you grew up with was not as off as you make out.

If it is God's truth, why did it lead me to death and darkness and not to His life, peace, and joy?

You can continue to give examples like this, and I can turn around and give examples of someone being struck down by the hand of God.  You can't be good enough Nebula.  I figured we all recognized that.  Even though I believe we must strive to live right, I  by no means believe we can ever be good enough on our own without God's grace.  I believe that what God expects of us is to do our best to follow his commandments.  Notice that I said "our best."  That is not something unobtainable.  If he wanted us to do more than our best, I could see your point.  We are to abstain from willfully choosing to do wrong.

"God helps those who help themselves"?

I pray some day you come to experience how much God loves you.

 

There are a couple of things that could have brought you to a place of darkness.  1.  You may not have liked having to follow rules, and having to make an effort made you miserable.  2.  You may have believed that when you actually were doing your best, you couldn't be sure you were saved.  If it was the first reason I gave, I can't help you.  If it was the second, I would say you were looking at things wrong.  We can know we are saved if we trust in God and do our best.  God doesn't ask us to do things we cannot do. 

[Guest Butero]

 

It is not that I literally expect wives to call their husbands lord.  I am just saying that Biblically, he is her lord, as Jesus Christ is Lord over the entire church.  All this stuff about if you do this and if you do that doesn't undo the responsibility we have as individuals to obey God's Word.  You could have a vile man who treats his wife worse than Archie Bunker, and the wife is still supposed to treat him as her lord, and be obedient.  He shouldn't treat her that way, but I am just saying, if he does.

Yes, and there are many women living as slaves this way. You should desire her heart more than her show of reverence because she "has" to.

 

It is not a matter of what I desire.  It is a matter of following scripture. 

[nebula]

There are a couple of things that could have brought you to a place of darkness.  1.  You may not have liked having to follow rules, and having to make an effort made you miserable.

 

That does it!

 

 

 

I was a religious prude!!

 

I had no problem not cussing, not smoking, not listening to rock music, not having sex, not dressing provocatively, doing the best I could to be obedient to a father who blew his top at the slightest irritation, praying every day, reading the Bible every day, etc., etc., etc.

 

 

You know what it was that I could not do Butero? Respond to verbal bullying (abuse) with love and grace. Giving thanks in all circumstances. Rejoicing in hope. Being patient. Having words "full of grace, seasoned with salt."

 

 

I grieve for you, Butero. Not that you would understand or care, but that's the "nicest" thing I can say right now.

[nebula]

Yes, and there are many women living as slaves this way. You should desire her heart more than her show of reverence because she "has" to.

It is not a matter of what I desire.  It is a matter of following scripture. 

 

I weep for you, Butero, I really do.

 

I know, you don't care. But I do.

[EnochBethany]

 

David knew God was not ready to smite with a thunderbolt. 

 

Well, David knew that God was forgiving, but he also respected the severity of God's chastising, which was really severe on David.

I guess you consider the death of 4 children, a daughter raped, a son do sex with your concubines and try to kill you, less than a thunderbolt?

 

Which would you chose?  The thunderbolt or all the above?  Thunderbolt is sudden, of course, and David's torment went over many years, not that he was in constant torment.

 

So David's chastisement was not a thunderbolt, but the Lord is long suffering and forgiving.  Yet His chastisement can be severe. 

 

Actually, I was thinking of this (the parts in bold):

 

Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick. 16 David therefore inquired of God for the child ; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them. 18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm !" 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead ; so David said to his servants, "Is the child dead ?" And they said, "He is dead." 20 So David arose from the ground, washed, anointed himself, and changed his clothes ; and he came into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he came to his own house, and when he requested, they set food before him and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done ? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept ; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept ; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.' 23 "But now he has died ; why should I fast ? Can I bring him back again ? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Sam. 12)

 

 

Did David perceive God's judgement and vengeance to be His #1 characteristic, the trait above all traits, the position that trumps all else?

 

Non-nebulous says, "Did David perceive God's judgement and vengeance to be His #1 characteristic, the trait above all traits, the position that trumps all else?"

 

Now that is a non-nebulous question.  Of course not.   For men, His grace is the trump card.

 

But David sure learned that our God is a consuming fire; it is a fearful thing to fall into His hands for chastening.  His hope that the child would not die was disappointed.  And the Lord does let us suffer disappointments.  Take the book of Lamentations, it rises in the middle, like to a mountain peak (before sinking back down):

 

Remember mine affliction and my  misery, the wormwood and the gall.

20     My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is bowed down within me.

21     This I recall to my mind; therefore have I hope.

22     It is of Jehovah’s lovingkindnesss that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

23     They are new every morning; great is thy faithfulness.

24     Jehovah is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.

25     Jehovah is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.

26     It is good that a man should hope and quietly wait for the salvation of Jehovah.

27     It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.

28      Let him sit alone and keep silence, because he hath laid it upon him.

29     Let him put his mouth in the dust, if so be there may be hope.

30     Let him give his cheek to him that smiteth him; let him be filled full with reproach.

31     For the Lord will not cast off for ever.

32     For though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesss.

33     For he doth not afflict  willingly, nor grieve the children of men.

34     To crush under foot all the prisoners of the earth,

35     To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the Most High,

36     To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord  approveth not.

37     Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

38     Out of the mouth of the Most High cometh there not evil and good?

39     Wherefore doth a living man complain,  a man for the punishment of his sins?

40     Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to Jehovah.

41     Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.

[nebula]

Non-nebulous says, "Did David perceive God's judgement and vengeance to be His #1 characteristic, the trait above all traits, the position that trumps all else?"

 

Now that is a non-nebulous question.  Of course not.   For men, His grace is the trump card.

 

But David sure learned that our God is a consuming fire; it is a fearful thing to fall into His hands for chastening.  His hope that the child would not die was disappointed.  And the Lord does let us suffer disappointments.

 

"Non-nebulous"? Not sure what you are implying by that....

 

But you are talking about adultery, murder, and defaming God's name before the people - not the kinds of things being spoken of in the OP.

 

Does God strike down husbands and wives for having dysfunctional relationships?

 

 

As for David, could he have written Psalm 51 if he didn't have a solid grasp on God's mercy and grace?

 

I don't believe he could cry, "Create in me a clean heart, O God," if he thought God's wrath trumped his mercy and grace.