If men got the Titus 2 Treatment…

[EnochBethany]

 

Non-nebulous says, "Did David perceive God's judgement and vengeance to be His #1 characteristic, the trait above all traits, the position that trumps all else?"

 

Now that is a non-nebulous question.  Of course not.   For men, His grace is the trump card.

 

But David sure learned that our God is a consuming fire; it is a fearful thing to fall into His hands for chastening.  His hope that the child would not die was disappointed.  And the Lord does let us suffer disappointments.

 

"Non-nebulous"? Not sure what you are implying by that....

 

But you are talking about adultery, murder, and defaming God's name before the people - not the kinds of things being spoken of in the OP.

 

Does God strike down husbands and wives for having dysfunctional relationships?

 

 

As for David, could he have written Psalm 51 if he didn't have a solid grasp on God's mercy and grace?

 

I don't believe he could cry, "Create in me a clean heart, O God," if he thought God's wrath trumped his mercy and grace.

 

Q

"Non-nebulous"? Not sure what you are implying by that....

unQ

 

I am saying that you are non-nebulous.  It was supposed to be a complement!  No defamation at all; it was famation!

 

As to the rest of your post, it doesn't fit with my comments; prraps you would like to re-read them?

 

Thou shalt not fire cannon balls at canary birds, Hezekiah 9:6

 

As I said, God's grace is the trump card for men!

 

[nebula]

Q

"Non-nebulous"? Not sure what you are implying by that....

unQ

 

I am saying that you are non-nebulous.  It was supposed to be a complement!  No defamation at all; it was famation!

OK! Thanks!

 

As to the rest of your post, it doesn't fit with my comments; prraps you would like to re-read them?

 

Thou shalt not fire cannon balls at canary birds, Hezekiah 9:6

 

As I said, God's grace is the trump card for men!

Sorry!

Hezekiah 5:8 - A closed mouth gathers no foot.

[Guest Butero]

 

But if you love your wife in ways that she feels loved, if you sacrifice your pride and dignity for her, if you serve her needs, if you meet her emotionally, if you make her feel like a queen and your greatest prize, if you pour all that you can into her happiness, if you learn to communicate your feelings to her when she does thing that hurt and upset you rather than communicating everything she did or does wrong, if you refrain from blame-shifting onto her, if you woe her with kindness rather than force her into submission - you will find her naturally respecting you, honoring you, revering you, kissing your feet, stroking your ego, making you the center of her world, doing all she can to make you happy out of gratitude.

 

 

Men who have to continually assert their "authority" whether it is overtly or covertly don't understand this way, because the woman is always a few steps beneath them and is required to submit, at all times as the inferior in the relationship.  If they understood the nature of their authority, they would never have to purposely assert it at all.  If you have to constantly tell someone you are in charge and continually assert how much authority you have, you are not in charge.  Men that only see the power/authority side completely miss the servant side of it that is also required and they will be much the poorer for it.

 

Hello Cobalt.  I haven't seen you in awhile.  I count it an honor that you would come back to dispute with me. 

 

What are you talking about, "don't understand this way?"  What way?  All Nebula did was come up with hurdles men have to jump through before wives have to submit to their authority, when the Bible never says any of that.  The reason the husband is in authority over his wife is not because he does all those things Nebula suggested, and it is not because he throws his weight around.  It is delegated authority from God himself.  It is kind of like that parable Jesus gave about how the lord of a vineyard left others in charge while he went away, and the people refused to submit.  It is not exactly the same, but the principle of delegated authority is.  God said the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church, and if people don't follow God's chain of authority, they will have to answer for it at the judgment.  It is as simple as that. 

 

The same thing applies to the men and their authority, Jesus Christ.  He left us scripture that tells us how we are to live.  If we disregard it, we may seemingly do alright for a time in this life, but we will have to give an account at the final judgment.  Nobody really gets away with anything.  I disagree with nearly every word you said, but that is not really surprising.   Regardless, welcome back.  I was actually thinking about you a couple of weeks ago and wondering what you have been up to. 

[Guest Butero]

 

There are a couple of things that could have brought you to a place of darkness.  1.  You may not have liked having to follow rules, and having to make an effort made you miserable.

 

That does it!

 

 

 

I was a religious prude!!

 

I had no problem not cussing, not smoking, not listening to rock music, not having sex, not dressing provocatively, doing the best I could to be obedient to a father who blew his top at the slightest irritation, praying every day, reading the Bible every day, etc., etc., etc.

 

 

You know what it was that I could not do Butero? Respond to verbal bullying (abuse) with love and grace. Giving thanks in all circumstances. Rejoicing in hope. Being patient. Having words "full of grace, seasoned with salt."

 

 

I grieve for you, Butero. Not that you would understand or care, but that's the "nicest" thing I can say right now.

 

How come you only addressed one thing I said in that response to you.  I said that it was possible that you were doing your best, but you felt like your best was not good enough.  I also said that God only expects us to do the best we can, not to do better than we can.  You are terrible about leaving out complete answers, and in this case, it can't be because it was long, because it wasn't. 

 

I honestly don't know what you think you are accomplishing with statements like your last comment.  Do you honestly think you are going to work on my emotions with that kind of stuff?  I deal in logic and reasoning, not emotion. 

[Guest Butero]

 

Yes, and there are many women living as slaves this way. You should desire her heart more than her show of reverence because she "has" to.

It is not a matter of what I desire.  It is a matter of following scripture. 

 

I weep for you, Butero, I really do.

 

I know, you don't care. But I do.

 

This is just plain bazaar to me.  You weep for me for following scripture?  This is what is wrong with the modern church, and why I am finding it more and more worthless.  The church is supposed to be encouraging us to find out what God says about something and practice it, and people do just the opposite.  Look at the comment you are responding to, and what you said.  I say we don't go by our feelings, but we are to follow scripture, and you weep for me???  I fear for you.  I hope you have an opportunity before it is to late to take an exit off the broad road and to get back on the strait and narrow way instead. 

 

I used to give this analogy when preaching on the two roads.  We have two highways that go west towards Tennessee.  One is U.S. 64 and one is I-40.  This is not a slur on Knoxville, but only used to make a point.  Lets suppose Knoxville is hell and Chatanooga is heaven.  For quite a while, you have numerous opportunities to exit back and forth from U.S. 64 onto the interstate, and they seemingly are heading to the same place.  Some might even find it strange if a person chose to run old 64, when it was much slower and aggravating than being able to go along at 70 mph.  You think to yourself, I can stay on the big road, and later on, change highways, but over time, the chances to change roads gets less frequent, until they completely separate and there is no turning back. 

 

You Nebula have abandoned the strait and narrow way for the super highway, and I fear for you.  I was praying for you, that the Lord would open your eyes to see the truth, that perhaps you would come to your senses, but I fear that might not happen.  You keep on weeping for me, but I believe you need to weep for yourself.  I have shown you in scripture you are wrong.  You just ignore it, and try to play on my emotions.  It won't work.  I won't be swayed by that kind of stuff, by you or anyone else.  I deal in reality.  I deal in what the Bible teaches.  I am not swayed by emotional appeals. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

But if you love your wife in ways that she feels loved, if you sacrifice your pride and dignity for her, if you serve her needs, if you meet her emotionally, if you make her feel like a queen and your greatest prize, if you pour all that you can into her happiness, if you learn to communicate your feelings to her when she does thing that hurt and upset you rather than communicating everything she did or does wrong, if you refrain from blame-shifting onto her, if you woe her with kindness rather than force her into submission - you will find her naturally respecting you, honoring you, revering you, kissing your feet, stroking your ego, making you the center of her world, doing all she can to make you happy out of gratitude.

 

 

Men who have to continually assert their "authority" whether it is overtly or covertly don't understand this way, because the woman is always a few steps beneath them and is required to submit, at all times as the inferior in the relationship.  If they understood the nature of their authority, they would never have to purposely assert it at all.  If you have to constantly tell someone you are in charge and continually assert how much authority you have, you are not in charge.  Men that only see the power/authority side completely miss the servant side of it that is also required and they will be much the poorer for it.

 

Hello Cobalt.  I haven't seen you in awhile.  I count it an honor that you would come back to dispute with me. 

 

What are you talking about, "don't understand this way?"  What way?  All Nebula did was come up with hurdles men have to jump through before wives have to submit to their authority, when the Bible never says any of that.  The reason the husband is in authority over his wife is not because he does all those things Nebula suggested, and it is not because he throws his weight around.  It is delegated authority from God himself.  It is kind of like that parable Jesus gave about how the lord of a vineyard left others in charge while he went away, and the people refused to submit.  It is not exactly the same, but the principle of delegated authority is.  God said the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church, and if people don't follow God's chain of authority, they will have to answer for it at the judgment.  It is as simple as that. 

 

The same thing applies to the men and their authority, Jesus Christ.  He left us scripture that tells us how we are to live.  If we disregard it, we may seemingly do alright for a time in this life, but we will have to give an account at the final judgment.  Nobody really gets away with anything.  I disagree with nearly every word you said, but that is not really surprising.   Regardless, welcome back.  I was actually thinking about you a couple of weeks ago and wondering what you have been up to. 

 

 

I am not disputing with you.  I learned long ago that any discussion with you is fruitless.  My comment was aimed, in general, at those men who are bullies when it comes to using the term "authority" to legitimize any behavior they want to display towards their wives, no matter how un-loving or demeaning that behavior might be.  There are plenty of them out there.

 

As for the bolded statement, it is false.  Neb never said that and has never even implied it.  She said she was raised around men who abused their authority which many men do.  You dismissed that statement, and that possibility, and labeled her as the problem.  You don't seem to believe that a man can abuse his authority because it seems that in your way of thinking, that authority covers every single thing and has no boundaries.  A woman is not required to be in submission to a man for every whim he desires, and any man using his authority simply to satisfy his own selfish desires or some internal need to "be in charge" is not practicing any kind of biblical authority.  All it makes him is a bully.

 

It actually states in scripture she is to obey her husband in everything.  If you don't believe me, I will be glad to pull out my Abington-Strongs Concordance and look it up and post it.  The only exception would be if Jesus Christ says something is wrong.  He is above the husband.  You make a lot of nice speeches, but they aren't based in scripture.  Nebula came out and said if the husband does this and if the husband does that, the wife will submit to him.  That is irrelevant.  Husbands and wives are responsible for following scripture, regardless of what their spouse does. 

 

A man can be a tyrant.  I said some men are, but that doesn't change the fact that the wife is told to submit to her husband, even in such cases, and as he sees her behavior, and her meek and quiet spirit, it may win him over.  If you don't believe that is in the Bible, I will post it too, but I believe you know enough about scripture to know it is. 

[Guest Butero]

This is a message given to Israel by the prophet Jeremiah, but I believe it is something God is speaking to the church today.  We have people that have been raised in strict churches, where they tell people they must obey scripture if they want to be saved.  People don't like that message, because it means they have to abstain from doing things they enjoy.  That means they can't behave like they want, dress like they want, be what they want.  It means they have to die to the old man.  That is not fun.  There must be an easier way, and sure enough, there are false teachers ready to show them a better way.  No longer do they have to follow out dated rules.  It is all by grace, and nothing is expected in return.  You can't even lose your salvation if you try.  They make them feel good, as they sooth their conscience, and make them feel wrong is right. 

 

For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.  They have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.  Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination?  nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush:  therefore they shall fall among them that fall:  at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.   Jeremiah 6:13-15

 

I have been reading testimonies of people that claim they came out of controlling and legalistic churches, where they were supposedly suffering from mental abuse, and now they claim to have found a good and sound church.  What they found in most cases was people like the ones described here.  There are covetous preachers who will tell lies to gain a big following so they can make a living off the church.  They heal the hurt of God's people, slightly, through their deceptions.  They make them feel good in their sins. 

 

God does give advise on how to escape the judgment in the next verse.  Jeremiah 6:16

 

Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls...

 

Sadly, look at how the people reacted.  I predict this is how the majority will react today, even in this thread if they continue to post. 

 

...But they said, We will not walk therein. 

 

That is how people are responding to me.  They don't like the old paths.  They want to walk after the flesh, while claiming they are walking in grace.  Continuing in verse 17

 

Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet, But they said, We will not hearken.  Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation what is among them.  Hear O earth:  behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. 

 

I believe this is the message to the church today, that is clinging to the phony grace message.  I believe that those who are following that way and preaching that false message will have to answer to God for leading people astray at the final judgment.  You can weep for me and feel sorry for me for believing the Bible and trying to follow it, but I believe that in the end, I will be proven correct.  I get no joy out of that, because I want everyone to make it to heaven, but that means following the strait and narrow path, and I see most racing full speed ahead down the broad road of destruction and encouraging others to join them.  Good luck with that. 

[nebula]

All Nebula did was come up with hurdles men have to jump through before wives have to submit to their authority,

You misheard me, Butero. I never said it was a requirement. Rather, it was a cause and effect.

By the way, God loved us before we loved Him. (That reminder came from my husband.) You might want to consider that when you consider how husbands and wives reflect Christ and the Church.

Jump through hurdles? Why do you want to put weight upon weight on the wives but gripe at the suggestion you have to bend yourself? Very sad.

 

How come you only addressed one thing I said in that response to you.  I said that it was possible that you were doing your best, but you felt like your best was not good enough.  I also said that God only expects us to do the best we can, not to do better than we can.  You are terrible about leaving out complete answers, and in this case, it can't be because it was long, because it wasn't. 

 

I honestly don't know what you think you are accomplishing with statements like your last comment.  Do you honestly think you are going to work on my emotions with that kind of stuff?  I deal in logic and reasoning, not emotion.

I am a woman, and women react emotionally.

You don't want to hear what my logic and reasoning wanted to say.

 

 

The church is supposed to be encouraging us to find out what God says about something and practice it, and people do just the opposite.  Look at the comment you are responding to, and what you said.  I say we don't go by our feelings, but we are to follow scripture, and you weep for me???

 

Because I said: "You should desire her heart more than her show of reverence because she "has" to." Your response o:f "It is not a matter of what I desire.  It is a matter of following scripture,"

was the equivalent of stating you could care less about your wife's heart.

 

That is why I weep.

[Guest Butero]

 

All Nebula did was come up with hurdles men have to jump through before wives have to submit to their authority,

You misheard me, Butero. I never said it was a requirement. Rather, it was a cause and effect.

By the way, God loved us before we loved Him. You might want to consider that when you consider how husbands and wives reflect Christ and the Church.

Jump through hurdles? Why do you want to put weight upon weight on the wives but gripe at the suggestion you have to bend yourself? Very sad.

 

How come you only addressed one thing I said in that response to you.  I said that it was possible that you were doing your best, but you felt like your best was not good enough.  I also said that God only expects us to do the best we can, not to do better than we can.  You are terrible about leaving out complete answers, and in this case, it can't be because it was long, because it wasn't. 

 

I honestly don't know what you think you are accomplishing with statements like your last comment.  Do you honestly think you are going to work on my emotions with that kind of stuff?  I deal in logic and reasoning, not emotion.

I am a woman, and women react emotionally.

You don't want to hear what my logic and reasoning wanted to say.

 

 

The church is supposed to be encouraging us to find out what God says about something and practice it, and people do just the opposite.  Look at the comment you are responding to, and what you said.  I say we don't go by our feelings, but we are to follow scripture, and you weep for me???

 

Because I said: "You should desire her heart more than her show of reverence because she "has" to." Your response o:f "It is not a matter of what I desire.  It is a matter of following scripture,"

was the equivalent of stating you could care less about your wife's heart.

 

That is why I weep.

 

First of all Nebula, if you have logic and reasoning that is Bible based, I would like to hear it over emotional appeals. 

 

I don't think it matters about the husband or wife's heart.  We are both given roles and requirements from God.  As such, I am supposed to do right even if my wife doesn't and vice versa.  We have to give an account as individuals.  In other words, if my wife doesn't submit as she is supposed to, and isn't a help meet as she was created to be, I am still accountable for my actions to love her as Christ loved the church.  I can't say that if only she changes, then my reaction will be to change too.  I can't wait on that.  It cuts both ways. 

[nebula]

Butero, for the record, I honor and respect my husband in ways that would blow your mind away. (I know he is!) And I am submitted to him with my whole heart.

 

So please don't think I'm making any kind of excuses.

 

Also, the things I mentioned above which you called jumping hurdles - these are things my husband has been doing for me even before we were married. The more he's done for me, the more I want to do for him, and vice versa.