Being a slave to sin under law....

[carlos123]

It's about understanding what grace REALLY IS, and how it works, rather than just some intangible mercy..........I believe that GRACE is the working POWER of Christ to accomplish God's will in us, and to help us to be victorious over the power of sin.

Dear Suzanne...I feel like I am starting to sound like a broken record here. I read and re-read your posts and looked at the thread you linked to and read the whole thing (so there was no need to repost your orignal posts for my sake) but I still don't understand what you think I misunderstand about grace. Can you please tell me what YOU think that I misunderstand specifically?

Sharing thoughts on grace or links to discussions on grace with me doesn't cut it. I want to know what YOU think I misunderstand.

I don't know what it is with some people on this forum, who you seem to be one of, who do not get specific about what I or others think. It's as if the belief is that if one throws relevant truth out to someone that somehow the Lord will take that and show others their fault through it.

Admittedly that does happen but in my case, in regard to grace, I have no clue what it is that you think I am misundertanding. I mean the Bible is in the homes of tons of people and even read by many. Until someone comes along and actually shares where their thinking is of in a very specific way many will remain lost in delusion thinking they are saved when in fact they are not.

It's not enough to just throw spriitual truth out as though by itself, it alone, will lead one to see what they need to see. Many times, indeed most times, you have to get down to the details and tell someone exactly what it is about their thinking that is deceived.

So, at the risk of sounding like a broken record once more, may I ask what it is about grace that you (not somebody else who might have written about grace) think is wrong in my thinking? I assure you that I am all ears and ready to be taught about the wrongness of my thinking, if indeed I am wrong in it somewhere, if you will but openly and specifically tell me where it is wrong.

If you don't do that well...can't say I didn't try to find it out from you.

Carlos

[His son]

I was reading through Romans some more tonight and was wondering if ya all could give me your take on the following verse and what it says.....

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

A master is someone who has rights over others who are his slaves. He can tell them what to do and when to do it and there is nothing the slave can do about it.

How does being under grace free us from sin as a master?

How does being under law make sin our master?

Sin is sin and dwells in our flesh. How does being under grace or law affect the ability of sin to control us as a master?

Anybody?

Carlos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God gave Adam & Eve dominion over the universe. Adam & Eve when faced with the choice of obeying God or satan obeyed satan, and surrendered that dominion to him, and he became our lord, and master. We had no choice in matters. Christ came as a man and took mastery over satan by total surrender of His will to God's will, and set us free from his lordship over us. Christ did not put us under His mastery but He returned to us the freewill to choose who we will serve. satan forces our obedience, God does not. Temptation is only temptation, and that is where our choice comes in. God gives us total freewill to choose, and He has provided the means by which we will be able to resist all the temptations, and extended us grace period that will enable us to learn all the salvation process, and accumulate the power to overcome all temptation. Our part is to learn, and obey totally surrendering our will to His will.

[tsth]

It's not enough to just throw spriitual truth out as though by itself, it alone, will lead one to see what they need to see.

Carlos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry Carlos, I think that we are having a computer screen breakdown here. Apparently, I misunderstood you, and you're misunderstanding me. I wasn't trying to be offensive. Maybe you do understand "grace", and I misread you. I'll let you continue on in your discussion here, and "try"....to stay on the sidelines.

I did however want to say that in regard to your above statement, I DO believe that the power of God's Word is sufficient to reveal what needs to be revealed, without adding my own words to it. If it is meant to be revealed then the Holy Spirit will/can reveal what the Word means.

All I was wanting to contribute here, was that in this day and time, many do not understand what grace DOES...........I'm assuming you understood my post, above, but if not, that's ok, God's Word is sufficient on It's own, and I won't add any further commentary. I'm sorry that my intent wasn't clear, I do hope that you will accept my apologies.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[carlos123]

Apparently, I misunderstood you, and you're misunderstanding me. 

I guess Suzanne. You did however say....

Forgive me for repeating myself, but again I say,

You really ought to understand grace.............then your question would be understood.  If we comprehend grace we are more capable to be at peace in our standing with God, or not.

In another post, reference to questioins I had about being under the Law, you said .....

I answered this in detail under your other thread about "implications".  I noticed that you did not understand it.  You might take one more look at it, in light of this new thread.  It's about understanding what grace REALLY IS, and how it works.

I was just trying to figure out what it was that you thought I was misunderstanding. I couldn't for the life of me figure out where my understanding was off. I wasn't trying to prove myself right or anything. I just wanted to learn and was sitting here all ears and all you seemeed to do when I asked you to clarify what you saw me misunderstanding was either share quotes of your previous posts with me or more spiritual truth. Without getting an answer to my questions.

If you call that a misunderstanding I am not sure where I misunderstood but I'll chalk it up as that if you want. It's just that now I not only still don't understand what it was you thought I misunderstood about grace but now I don't even understand what it was that we were misunderstanding . No offense intended Suzanne but I am sitting her laughing outloud at this misunderstanding about a misunderstanding. It's really quite funny.

I wasn't trying to be offensive. 

No offense taken. You have not and never have been offensive and I have never taken anything you have said as such so no worries there sis.

I'll let you continue on in your discussion here, and "try"....to stay on the sidelines. 

Suzanne there is no need to stay on the sidelines. I do think you have valuable insight and could be of beneift in any such discussion. It's just that I did not understand....welll...since we don't apparently understand what it is that we misunderstand .... I guess I'll leave it that . If you want to stay on the sidelines of course that is certainly your perogative but I will miss any benefit to be gained from your insight on thiings.

I did however want to say that in regard to your above statement, I DO believe that the power of God's Word is sufficient to reveal what needs to be revealed, without adding my own words to it.  If it is meant to be revealed then the Holy Spirit will/can reveal what the Word means.

Ah....here we get to the meat of our misunderstanding I think. Yes the Holy Spirit will and can reveal what the Word means but you know something? The Holy Spirit works through us. He is not a being that someihow works seperate from us such that people can read the Bible all on their own and somehow be enlightened as to it's meaning all on their own. It can and does happen. Don't get me wrong. But most often the Holy Spirit works through us. Not alone apart from us.

I have started a seperate thread on this if you are interested in commenting on this more fully Suzanne. I would consider your input a very valuable adition to a discussion on that. I promise to behave myself and not "blast" you or anything. I say that only because I have been known to blast away before with the net result that God is not able to accomplish what he might otherwise want through me at all. At least not directly in line with what I "blasted" people about. Though it is quite amazing how he often turns things around for the greater good. Even through my "blasting".

The new thread is here....

http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18201

I'm sorry that my intent wasn't clear, I do hope that you will accept my apologies.

Dear Suzanne....it wasn't that you intention wasn't clear I think (as such there is no need to apologize sis). It was that you were coming from the perspective that you could share about grace with me such that the Holy Spirit would then be able to help me see what it is that I needed to see and that you felt I was misunderstanding without your needing to comment further in what could have turned out to be a correction from you to me on what I was thinking. Which by the way I would have been very thankful for.

I have no hard feelings sis and it's possible once again that I am seeing things that aren't there and making an issue out of nothing. It is I who should apologize if that is the case sis. At the same time I am calling it as I see it while realizing that I might need to learn and could be wrong.

You know on a funny sort of side note, sometimes, as now I write in such a way that I feel like ending my post as men of old used to end such things.

Your humble servant (has a nice sounding ring to it I think though it also expresses a truth about what I need to be ),

Carlos

[tsth]

In His Love,

Suzanne

[carlos123]

Hmm...let's see. Now I am really clueless as to what you are trying to say but hey that's okay sis.

A smile back to you to .

I am getting a real kick (amusement wise) at how we are communicating sis. Nothing peronal but at times it's been downright funny in a good sort of way.

Have a great day Suzanne! God Bless you.

Carlos

[tsth]

Hey carlos.........I wasn't saying anything............I was just smiling!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[carlos123]

Hey carlos.........I wasn't saying anything............I was just smiling!

No problem sis! I always and in every way appreciate a smile. May I ask what brought a smile to your heart if you care to share? If it's something about what I said don't worry I often laugh uproariously at myself.

Feel free to expand just a tad on what made you smile .

Carlos

[Guest truebeliever7]

I was reading through Romans some more tonight and was wondering if ya all could give me your take on the following verse and what it says.....

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

A master is someone who has rights over others who are his slaves. He can tell them what to do and when to do it and there is nothing the slave can do about it.

How does being under grace free us from sin as a master?

How does being under law make sin our master?

Sin is sin and dwells in our flesh. How does being under grace or law affect the ability of sin to control us as a master?

Anybody?

Carlos

Carlos

God gave us His grace through Jesus Christ. And Jesus died for our sins.

How does being under grace free us from sin as a master?

Rom 5:1-2

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

(NKJ)

Gal 3:22-29

22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(NKJ)

Gal 5:24-25

24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

(NKJ)

Eph 2:4-9

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

(NKJ)

John 1:17

17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

(NKJ)

How does being under law make sin our master?

Rom 5:11-21

11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

(NKJ)

John 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

(NKJ)

Sin is sin and dwells in our flesh. How does being under grace or law affect the ability of sin to control us as a master?

Rom 7:1-25

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

(NKJ)

hope this helped

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Yasha]

Romans 6

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

************

1 John 3

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.