jerryR34 Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/22/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1969 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) deleted by user Edited September 5, 2014 by jerryR34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryR34 Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/22/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1969 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 yikes...all I wanted here was for creationists to characterize what they think the other side says about evolution - doesn't mean you believe it, and in fact, I stated that it was understood you didn't believe it. Is it really that hard...do we need pages of fallacy charges and splitting of hairs to get an answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 yikes...all I wanted here was for creationists to characterize what they think the other side says about evolution - doesn't mean you believe it, and in fact, I stated that it was understood you didn't believe it. Is it really that hard...do we need pages of fallacy charges and splitting of hairs to get an answer? No, I waited until after I gave you the answer to start splitting hairs. But if all you wanted was an unbiased answer, all we want is an unbiased request. Took us this long to even start to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryR34 Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/22/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1969 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 yikes...all I wanted here was for creationists to characterize what they think the other side says about evolution - doesn't mean you believe it, and in fact, I stated that it was understood you didn't believe it. Is it really that hard...do we need pages of fallacy charges and splitting of hairs to get an answer? No, I waited until after I gave you the answer to start splitting hairs. But if all you wanted was an unbiased answer, all we want is an unbiased request. Took us this long to even start to get it. Why the need to split hairs at all? You gave a good answer, then couldn't leave it alone? What's driving that? I've gone out of my way not to turn this into a mess of a debate thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted September 5, 2014 ================================================================================ I believe the creation myth is allegory. Care to offer any support for this Unsupported Assertion (Fallacy) or..... just continue down the "Blind Faith" path? Also, can you tell us the point of this OP.... I'm sure everyone would like to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 Still waiting on a response to Jerry. Care to comment or respond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 Also, can you tell us the point of this OP.... I'm sure everyone would like to know Yes, I've been wondering the same thing. As this is a discussion forum for discussing and debating... It seems the OP set restrictions as to what would and wouldn't be allowed to be discussed. This topic is all about posting without bias (according to the discretion of the OP starter) and all about science. What is the purpose of this thread Jerry? I'm sure there is a hypothesis formulated by the OP somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted September 5, 2014 yikes...all I wanted here was for creationists to characterize what they think the other side says about evolution - doesn't mean you believe it, and in fact, I stated that it was understood you didn't believe it. Is it really that hard...do we need pages of fallacy charges and splitting of hairs to get an answer? No, I waited until after I gave you the answer to start splitting hairs. But if all you wanted was an unbiased answer, all we want is an unbiased request. Took us this long to even start to get it. Why the need to split hairs at all? You gave a good answer, then couldn't leave it alone? What's driving that? I've gone out of my way not to turn this into a mess of a debate thread. Jerry, I think you need to take an ojective look at what's happened here. You've been splitting hairs yourself by objecting to Trisen's wording (thinking it implied judgement), to my use of the word 'confirmed' in relation to a hypothesis, etc. You want to split hairs. You want to split them over whether or not our responses are objective enough for you. Splitting hairs isn't the problem - you just want to control which hairs get split, when and how. You say you came here to press us to see if you could get an unbaised answer (which you did from both Trisen and myself) - if it's so important to amass unbias responses then just ask the question in an unbiased way. The thread's only as messy as you've facilitated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryR34 Posted September 5, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/22/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1969 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 There should be a distinction as well between YEC (Young Earth Cretinism) and OEC (Old Earth Creationism). what are your views on evolution? (assuming you are in the OEC camp) Actually, I am in the YEC camp. I believe in the literal account of creation in Genesis in the Bible. Not a mixture of evolution with creationism which I believe is what those in the OEC camp believe. Regarding Evolution: My views on evolution are that it is a scientific yet unproven theory much like intelligent design or the big bang theory. Evolution is, of course, more popular in most scientific circles. Dissent from evolution is not only frowned upon but simply put attacked by many in the evolutionist camp. (See Ben Stein's No Intelligence Allowed) Evolution (including IMO even OEC) is in fact an ongoing or continuing process. Charles Darwin’s book, The Origin of Species, was in fact subtitled, The preservation of favored races in the struggle for life. Evolution IMO could be argued provides the scientific backing necessary for the philosophies of Marxism, fascism, racism, apartheid and unchecked capitalism. Regarding Creation: Biblical authors throughout the Bible treated the Genesis account of creation as history and not allegory or mythology. Genesis is quoted throughout the Bible more than any other book. So it makes sense to question the foundation of any religion I suppose. Question to you of an altruistic form JerryR34: Where do love and philanthropy come from in a world evolving by chance mutation and natural selection? Theistic evolutionists (OEC) have an issue as well with their position. If God used the evolutionary method, then it could be argued He is the author of pain, suffering, and evil. Only an initially perfect world, created by a loving God, but ruined by the entrance of sin in the Genesis account can account for both the good and evil which we find around us. Your thoughts? I was not asking for your views, just for what you perceived the other side as saying. BTW theories are never proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ehud Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Hello Jerry, In response to your question in the OP, here are my thoughts: I believe an evolutionary bioligist or population geneticist asked to define biological evolution would simply say evolution is a change in the distribution of alleles over time. Or a more simplified version which is also quite accurate, a change in the genome over generations. In other words when there is a gene variation which gives a group of animals some slight advantage over its neighbors, over time that gene variation will become prevalent throughout the population and you have evolution. That is, IMO, how mainstream secular science strictly defines evolution. It is worth noting that all Creationists and Evolutionists realize that this happens continously in nature, as there are countless examples of this documented in the scientific literature (e.g. three-spine sticklebacks, the infamous peppered moths, and many, many others). So biological evolution in its strictist sense in not a theory or hypothesis or fill in the blank, it is merely a term which denotes a process we observe in nature, much like the term gravity. As a Biblical Creationist, I can firmly say I believe in biological evolution to the same extent and in the same way that I believe in gravity. So we can all just get along...right? Well, of course we all know it's not that simple. Most biologists do research that is unrelated to evolution (as defined above) and, therefore, often incorrectly equate the term "evolution" with the Theory of Common Descent** (we Creationists do this a lot too). Really, it would do everyone a real favor if we could all be a little more precise on what we mean by the terms we use. In fact, you've got to give Creationists some credit for trying to relabel evolution (as defined above) as "microevolution" in order differentiate it from the Theory of Common Descent or "macroevolution" (although these terms have their own issues). Mainstream science has been oddly reluctant to make the distinction between evolution (as defined above) and Evolution (Theory of Common Descent). This may be because there is much to gain from keeping the terms together. You see, a scientist can honestly say, "We see evolution (as defined above) happening all around us," and the classroom/television audience hears "We see Evolution (The Theory of Common Descent) happening all around us." Afterall, it doens't sound very impressive to say, "We see changes in allele distributions happening all around us." In marketing, this would be called bait and switch, in logic this would be called equivocation, but in science this is called acceptable. The real issue worth discussing is whether the changing genomes over time (which we have termed biological evolution) can be invoked as an explanation for the existence of all lifeforms arising from a single early lifeform**. This is a fantastic claim worthy of scrutiny. For my own part, I believe evolution cannot account for the origination of the enormous complexity seen in the world today but that this stems from an inteligent designer...IMO, the God of the Bible. Ultimately, I'm a Creationist because I believed what the Bible had to say about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, so I decided to take His word for the beginning of the book as well. Hold the Fort, Ehud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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