The Indwelling Holy Spirit VS Other Spirits

[Sola Scriptora]

Botz, why do you leave out the vowels in the words Lord and God?

[Botz]

Sola I got into the practice years ago...I have Orthodox and Messianic friends who prefer to write them this way...the Messianic Synagogue I went to did this...and when I am in Israel it is common practice in many places... (some get quite hot under the collar if you do not)...and I also write a fair bit in E-mail and with friends who also prefer it...so rather than chop and change all the time which is totally confusing to me...I have adopted the same method...I am not bound by it...in fact I don't even think about it really.

Some Christians find it quirky or unnecessary...I can live with that.

[Sola Scriptora]

Well I think it is ridiculous. The Messianic Jews need to face the reality that the New Testament has the Words for God and Lord, vowels and all. The Lord does not want us leaving out vowles for whatever reason the Jews did. They need to get delivered from the Old Covenabt, and see the glory of God in the face od Jesus Christ. I get tired of these people and their refusal to give up the dead letter of the law, as well as their unbiblical rabbinic traditions.

[Botz]

I am sure you would go down a treat in Israel.

Frankly I don't think that sort of attitude shows any degree of grace whatsoever.

I imagine the L-rd has been patient and loving and kind towards you over the years..and yet you are easily provoked by so small a matter and are ready to condemn many Jews because their attitudes and traditions annoy you.

Matthew 18:23 Therefore the kingdom of Heaven has been compared to a certain king who desired to make an accounting with his servants.

Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to count, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.

Mat 18:25 But as he had nothing to pay, his lord commanded that he, and his wife and children, and all that he had, be sold, and payment be made.

Mat 18:26 Then the servant fell down and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me and I will pay you all.

Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. And he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me what you owe.

Mat 18:29 And his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, Have patience with me and I will pay you all.

Mat 18:30 And he would not, but went and cast him into prison until he should pay the debt.

Mat 18:31 So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry. And they came and told their lord all that was done.

Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after he had called him, said to him, O wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.

Mat 18:33 Should you not also have pitied your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?

Mat 18:34 And his lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors until he should pay all that was due to him.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also to you, unless each one of you from your hearts forgive his brother their trespasses.

[Sola Scriptora]

That passage has to do with forgiveness or wrongs done, not patience Botz! Sure I have an attitude towards those with Judaizer tendencies. I am watching a froend of mine become a Judaizer by wasting time on their websites. He is becoming a kook. He refuses to say the name of Jesus, but Yeshua, and only the names for God in Hebrew. So when he shows up at abortion clinics with us and preaches, he is talking nonsense that no one understands, but that he thinks pleases God!

Most messianic Jews were not raised in strict Jewish homes. They are3 not under that culture, they LEARN to be this way from others, who should know better now that we are in the light of the New Covenant. Paul had no patience for them and their nonsense either. They should be encouraged to SPELL the words "Lord" and "God". They should be encrouaged to let go of unBiblical traditions. What's wrong with that?

[Botz]

Sola I think you need to ask yourself what is more important...getting in a tizzy because of a few religious traditions or being able to look beyond some surface oddities to more important issues...

Paul had all the patience in the world for genuine Believers be they Jew or Gentile that followed the L-rd and the teachings of the Apostles...what he had no time for were Jews who tried to impose their customs on the freshly emerging Gentile Church for whom he was an Apostle and a Father and I guess was understandably very jealous for their new found freedom in Messiah.

This is hardly in the ranks of Judaizing where people are imposing an unbiblical standard that has its roots in the doctrines and traditions of men and interferes with the freedom and liberty we have in Messiah...it seems that you are using this unimportant issue as a springboard to air your obvious gripe against some things you have experienced which I am not really privvy to and cannot comment...but I have been on the receiving end of some strange Jewish ideas...especially from one Messianic Rabbi friend of mine who went totally meshuga.

I expect there are things in your life that are less than perfect and probably areas that you struggle in and require the grace of G-d to gain victory and be an overcomer just as there are in mine...I think the grace of G-d can extend to some areas of Jewish tradition that many Gentiles have little concept about...but in the grand scheme of things are not of paramount importance.

Now if Jewish Believers were insisting Gentiles get circumcized or that they should undergo purification rituals or adopt Jewish dietry Laws then that is another matter.

As to Yeshua being preferred to Jesus...yes it can be confusing at times and even a bit of a hinderance to the clarity of the Gospel in the wrong context...it is a cultural thing...when in Rome.

[Sola Scriptora]

There are those who insist on dietary laws and ways of dress etc. These are Americans, raised American, who start to dress this way for no good reason except that Judaizing spirit. It is always divisive.

Notice what our Lord said:

Matthew:

23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad

their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the

synagogues,

23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi,

Rabbi.

23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and

all ye are brethren.

23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father,

which is in heaven.

23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

In blatant disobedience, these people not only take these expressly forbidden titles to them selves, but allow others to call them by them. That religious, "make a shew in the flesh" spirit is all over them. They are conceited. Paul said:

3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things

to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and

rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man

thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of

Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a

Pharisee;

3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the

righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of

the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered

the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win

Christ,

3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is

of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the

righteousness which is of God by faith:

Paul's jewish background and customs meant NOTHING to him after He found the Messiah. He counted them as manure! So those who glory in what Paul counted manure are not wise, AND they always have an air of superioroty, pretending to be more authentic than us poor dumb gentiles believers and churches. It is flesh and it is divisive. I see the "little" thing to you as a seed-bed for big problems.

Galatians

4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of

God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,

whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

Most of what the Messianincs are into are weak and beggarly elements, according to Paul, and "bondage". If people get all caught up in that, they are wasting their time.

[Botz]

Sola if you choose to focus on small issues that is entirely up to you...I am well aware of the pitfalls of Judaizing but I am not on a witch-hunting mission to focus on every appearance of evil and drag it into line with what I know of G-ds word...this smacks too much of straining at gnats.

I have met many more Christians that put on airs and graces than I have Messianic Jews who thought they were somehow elite...in fact I have met many Gentile Messianics who have attempted to be more Kosher than their Jewish counterparts which is all a bit silly really and sends out some very mixed messages. I see much of it as a bit of a fad...Messianic Jews are a relatively new phenomena in these days and they are still struggling to stand up and define themselves within the body of Christ...but many of them are doing a great pioneering job especially in Israel.

You mentioned...

Paul's jewish background and customs meant NOTHING to him after He found the Messiah. He counted them as manure! So those who glory in what Paul counted manure are not wise, AND they always have an air of superioroty, pretending to be more authentic than us poor dumb gentiles believers and churches. It is flesh and it is divisive. I see the "little" thing to you as a seed-bed for big problems.

I don't agree with you that Paul's Jewish background meant nothing to him even after he came to faith in Messiah.

I think he cherished his heritage and was thankful of the traditions and teachings that he had come to know and love...he only counts them as 'dung' along with everything else in his life if he somehow places confidence in them over knowing the L-rd or preaching the Gospel and he has aptly demonstrated that he puts no confidence in the flesh whatsoever.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Regards. Botz.

[Sola Scriptora]

I think he cherished his heritage and was thankful of the traditions and teachings that he had come to know and love

He taught being Jewish(at that time) was an advantage. But his heritage and traditions caused him to persecute and kill Christians, something he lamented over and over in the epistles! How about 2Cor 3?

3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of

ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of

the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth

life.

3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was

glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold

the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was

to be done away:3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth

the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect,

by reason of the glory that excelleth.

3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of

speech:

3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children

of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is

abolished:

3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same

vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is

done away in Christ.

3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their

heart.

3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken

away.

3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is,

there is liberty.

3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the

Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as

by the Spirit of the Lord.

The Old Covenant was the ministry od death, condemnation, and the deadness of the letter. It has been left behind by the Lord for the REAL PURPOSE--Jews and Gentiles in one body foloowing the Lord by His Spirit, not seasons, days, rituals, ceremonies, titles etc.

And I think blatantly disobeying the Lord about the titles "Rabbi" is not gnatstraining there Botz, but rather brazeness! Its an easy command to obey, and yet to openly defy Christ the Lord! This shows a spirit behind their ways. It is puffed up flesh.

Edited January 26, 2005 by Sola Scriptora

[Botz]

Sola.

I have yet to meet a Jew who comes to meet his Messiah that desdains his heritage and the traditions of his forefathers. There may be certain teachings and fables that he drops when coming into the Kingdom of G-d especially if he has been deeply involved in some of the more esoteric teachings of Talmud...but by and large they enjoy being a Jew....some secular Jews even find a renewed interest in their whole history.

Paul was able to use the his wealth of knowledge about the Scriptures and the traditions of the Pharisees to great effect in the Kingdom of G-d and far from detracting against the Spirit he was now able to see them through the clarity of the teaching of the Spirit...the scales had literally fallen from his eyes and the veil had been removed. Paul did not throw out the baby with the bath-water.

And I think blatantly disobeying the Lord about the titles "Rabbi" is not gnatstraining there Botz, but rather brazeness! Its an easy command to obey, and yet to openly defy Christ the Lord! This shows a spirit behind their ways. It is puffed up flesh.

I think that by solely picking up on the word 'Rabbi' in Matthew 23:8 you are missing the import of what Jesus is saying which is these men who love and seek after the title 'Rabbi' are producing death because they reap to the flesh and make a show in the flesh and love the things of the flesh.

It is not just the word Rabbi that you should pick up on if you are going to be consistant in where you are taking your argument....

Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

The whole point is not in the title but in those that assume the title and vie for the title making it the goal.

John the Baptist was called Rabbi.

We all use the word father.

And master basically means teacher and is an office of the Spirits ministry...Apostles,Prophets....Teachers etc.

It could be said that the great Apostle Paul was a learned Rabbi who was a Father in the faith and an outstanding Teacher...without one whit destroying the thrust of what Jesus is saying here...'don't seek after these things they are not what the Kingdom of G-d is all about.'

So there are some people in the Messianic movement that assume the title and the role of Rabbi...they have their reward. Many others have earnt the title of Rabbi just as we would call someone a Pastor,Preacher,Teacher etc...and I could name many of those who seem to have got their title out of a Christmas cracker.

You also mention...

The Old Covenant was the ministry od death, condemnation, and the deadness of the letter. It has been left behind by the Lord for the REAL PURPOSE--Jews and Gentiles in one body foloowing the Lord by His Spirit, not seasons, days, rituals, ceremonies, titles etc.

I understand what you are implying...but I do not see a great distinction between the Old Covenant and the New (Renewed) Covenant...they are part and parcel of the whole plan and counsel of G-d...the former leads into the latter through the death and ressurection of the Lamb of G-d...and I do not despise any part of it for the Spirit worked through both.

Regards. Botz