WayneB Posted January 10, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 10, 2005 wayne, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted January 11, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 First, my understanding is that licensing to a "user" is a term applied to stand alone Personal Computers (not networks) regardless of how many people actually use the Personal Computer. From my understanding, software is licenced to the hardware it is to be installed on and is usually transferable but may not be. So when the term "user" is used, it applies to a PC (as opposed to a mainframe or network system). Otherwise, if the software is to be used on a network of computers or a mainframe, a network license would be required. Hi bro! Nice to see you join our discussion! Essentially you are correct in your understanding Wayne. For a single user or a bunch of users, using the same one computer the licencing is per computer. Licencing as such is much, much simpler. But when you start delving into network licencing then things get a bit trickier. When youi start mixing operating systems, like Linux, into a Windows network things can get real tricky from the standpoint that Microsoft wants it's pound of flesh....oops...I mean money any which way it can get it even it means that someone on a computer running Linux connects to the Microsoft network to do even such a small thing as using a networked printer. It looks like we have a 15 user licence for our Windows 2000 Server which solves a lot of my concern. With a 15 user licence up to 15 users can connect to our Server from whatever computer they are at without violating any Microsoft licence. Of course if I set up Linux thin clients to connect to the Server, Microsoft might not like that too much since their software will not be running on each of the client (workstation) computers but I think that the Server licence allows that. At least I think so. Second, if your boss has not told you to do anything wrong and the office manager has told you that all the programs you have in use are legal, then what more can you expect. You must take them at their word until you find out otherwise. Good point bro! I guess I have been in so many different scenarious where people have said more or less the same thing where it has not turned out that way that I may have jumped the gun here and gotten a bit overly concerned. You see many people have no clue what is on their computers. They don't know where the original disks went to. They allowed Dick, Jane, and Harry to put whatever software they wanted and needed on the computers. And the end result is that management thinks everything is kosher when in fact it probably isn't. Still your point is well taken bro. I will wait until a situation actually reveals itself before I hit the panic button . I was trying to prepare myself by starting this thread and hashing out what to do ahead of time though I think I might have given out the impression that I was trying to justify thievery by some of what I said. And looking back on some of my reasoning I can see why . Even then, you must not assume anything but gently confront them regarding your discovery and offer the proper solution ensuring compliance with copyright laws. Sound piece of advice! Thanks bro. I wish every employee took these issues seriously whereby corporate offices would not have to impose strict guidelines. My company is so strict that my plant is forced to buy ALL our personal computers through their office at about twice the cost. They also place locks on the operating system where programs cannot be loaded onto the PC without a password...and they have all the passwords. My solution? I bought my own PC out of my own money! Given that, you can imagine the nightmare scenarious that can be inherited by newly hired Systems Administrators who get a network dumped on their lap which has been installed by who knows who, where the original disks with registration numbers and all are nowhere to be found, and where various people in the organization who may pride themselves on being computer literate have been allowed to install whatever they want on the computers. As you know I wasn't hired as a Systems Administrator but given my background in computers that is what I have become. In addition to doing my other job duties. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted January 11, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Carlos, maybe that is why you don't see the software laying around anywhere. Maybe someone in their short stroke of wisdom put it away..... Now another story if a drive crashes and you have to find it again. I am hoping that a drive does not crash . It would be much easier if you had built the network yourself, You can say that again!!! Amen and amen to that! Part of the pressure I am feeling, though that has been relieved a great deal lately as a result of my putting my foot down and saying "Whoa there!", is that my boss does not really like to grapple with detail issues. He just wants to see us be productive. He sees a need for a computer. So he gets one that has been sitting around for years in one of our other offices and had it brought in. It had 32 MB of RAM and is running Windows 98 (again no disk of any kind anywhere in sight). I scraped memory from another computer and brought it up to 256 MB RAM but am still thinking of scrapping it altogether and making it a Linxu thin client (a computer with no hard disk, no floppy, no CD-ROM, barely any memory, and just a monitor, mouse, and keyboard) connected to our Windows 2000 Server. For that matter I am thinking of at some point encouraging my boss to get rid of Windows 2000 altogether and setting up a Linux server to run our domain (the wold of our computer network). The nice thing about Linux is that I can copy the software as much as I want, anywhere I want without any licencing hassles at all. It's a breath of fresh air compared to Microsoft's licencing. I don't mean to say that all Microsoft licencing is evil or some such thing. Only that I am the kind of guy that reads the fine print and then by clicking on the Agree button I then feel obligated to abide by what I agreed to. And rightly so. The problem is that Microsoft's licencing was written by a whole slew of lawyers and sometimes, though not always, one like me has to rack my brain to figure out what I can and cannot do with their software. On top of that I have to remember what I agreed to in it's various forms. One licence will have a slightly different allowed use than another for a slightly different time period under a changing set of options which might change the base licence and allow me to do something else more in line with what I want if I will do this over here and maybe that over there. It reminds me very much of trying to make heads or tails of IRS regulations and instructions! . It's enough to drive somebody batty sometimes! I long ago got rid of such nonsense when i installed Linux and started using free software. Now that I am using my computer skills once again at a job I find myself having to deal once again with the reading of mountains of fine print and to unravel what i am and am not allowed to do. Yuk! Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted January 11, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 (edited) See Carlos' concern? I think I need to summarize my concern in view of how I have rambled into various issues on this thread . As Shiloh and others so aptly pointed out, illegally copying software such that one gets away with not paying the creator of that software their asking price, is stealing. No question of that! And that is wrong. If my boss asks me to illegally copy software and participate in such a thing I will not do it. Period. Job or no job. So that's not been my concern though I admit that some of the arguments I brought up implied that under certain cirscumstances it might be okay to do (such as when everyone in Asia kind of thing is doing it). My intent in bring up those arguments was not to justify stealing but rather to point out how difficult these kinds of issues might be in a society that does not put much of any stock in personal integrity. I do not have illegally copied software on any of our home network computers. I do not copy software or install it illegally for friends on their computers though several relatives and others have asked me to do just that in the past. I have even come down on our daughter and her friends for illegally copying Christian songs off the Internet. And I have used with her the same argument that was used on me in this thread. That just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it right. My concern has primarily been on how I can avoid confrontation with my boss and others in our company without doing something immoral and illegal myself. In other words can I set up Linux think clients (workstations) allowing illegal access to software on our Server without breaking the Lord's standards of righteousness for me? In other words I am not doing anything wrong by setting up such computers, I did not agree to the Server licence or install iit, and even though Microsoft migth want us to do otherwise, I am doing nothing illegal or wrong by the set up of a computer that will allow my boss and his company to use software illegally if they choose to do so. My concern has been how to navigate through these types of issues without being a party pooper for my boss and his company nor a Microsoft licencing activist and snitch. All while still honoring God by my walk. Workers at my company know that I am a Christian. The easiest thing would be, as I have done in the past, to stay away from this field altogether but I think God wants me to learn to navigate through a world that is corrupt and ungodly, greedy and self-centered while still living righteously myself. Being in the world but not of it kind of thing. I don't like these kinds of things. As I said I am a black and white type of person. Yet I sense that God has allowed me once again to encounter a less than black and white situation (at least in my mind) so that I might learn patience and learn better to rely on Him in the spur of the moment when I might not know quite what to do. Carlos Edited January 11, 2005 by carlos123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted January 11, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 11, 2005 Incidentally I just though of a perfect scenario that demonstrates a grey area that causes me consternation. Microsoft has it's licencing right? Whoever clicks on their Agree button should abide by it right? Let's assume that the Microsoft sofware has been illegally installed. Let's assume further that I am setting up Linux client workstations to access software on the Microsoft Server. I do not click on any Microsoft Agree button and as such do not agree to any Microsoft licence. I do nothing wrong, setting up a new computer as a Linxu workstation and working with our present network to make it work well with Microsoft comptuers (I don't believe Microsoft has yet come up with a licence agreement to keep people from touching any computers with theiir software on it if they have not first agreed to abide by their licence agreements). I do nothing wrong by teaching my boss and whoever else wants to how to connect to Microsoft computers and use them from the Linux one. Although doing so might break a Microsoft agreement. Is that a sin for me to do that? Am I culpable in wrong doing? Am I guilty by virtue of making it easy for others to do something illegal? Though I myself am not doing anything illegal at all. Should I avoid every appearance of evil and not even set up such Linux computers? Should I not even work at a company that intentionally uses one single piece of illegallly copied software at all? Should I even use software that is illegally copied and which iis already installed? These are not easy questions to answer I think and as far as I know there are no clear cut and fast answers. That is what I mean by grey areas. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 11, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Microsoft has it's licencing right? Whoever clicks on their Agree button should abide by it right? You want the truth Carlos? I have never read the licensing agreement with any piece of software that I have purchased and installed on any of the personal computers I have ever owned. I just click on the agree button and move the process of loading my new software along. Regardless, I am very simple minded and do not require much to get by. All I need is MS Office and I'm all set. Regarding networks, I have NO knowledge although I can appreciate the complexity of licensing terms & conditions that you have to deal with. Regardless, I cannot answer your questions with confidence. Actually, I would have never thought to ask those questions myself. One thought though...assume nothing and make your decisions based on what you know as fact. Sometimes speculating too much can bring progress to a dead halt. Knowledge of wrongdoing makes us culpable BUT assuming and speculating wrongdoing is needless and unproductive. I would install the new workstations and not concern myself with the software already loaded on the server. Regarding working at a "company that intentionally uses one single piece of illegally copied software at all", I would not look backward and only address those violations that I was aware of. Take them one at a time and set the new standard of ensuring compliance with copyright laws. Regardless, finding a "perfect" company would be akin to finding "perfect" people. When you find one. let me know. Bless you brother for caring! Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 Microsoft has it's licencing right? Whoever clicks on their Agree button should abide by it right? You want the truth Carlos? I have never read the licensing agreement with any piece of software that I have purchased and installed on any of the personal computers I have ever owned. I just click on the agree button and move the process of loading my new software along. Regardless, I am very simple minded and do not require much to get by. All I need is MS Office and I'm all set. I was asking a rhetorical question bro though I think you knew that and were just taking the opportunity posed by the question to give your input as if the question was real . Incidentally I would encourage you to start looking at licence agreements bro. Not so much from the standpoint that Microsoft or other software maker is going to ask you to agree to give them all your money or some such thing, hidden deep within the agreement, but rather because as Christians I think it would be more honoring to God to know what it is we are agreeing to and to abide by whatever we agree to. If I am not mistaken the Lord will hold us accountable to what we agree to in this life. Whether said agreements were in line with what he would have wanted us to agree to or not. Of course it is unlikely that Microsoft would ask you and I to agree to something immorral or ungodly in itself mind you. The problem comes in when, as a result of not knowing what you agreed to, you break said agreement in some way and are thus guilty of not letting your yes (to the agreement) be yes and your no (to the agreement (if you decline to accept it) be no. Does that make sense bro? You know what is really ironic or perhaps unusual in regard to how I look at accepting agreements and believing I am accountable to God for them? When I fall into looking at Internet porn, which I fall into sometimes, I will come to a site that asks me to agree to some agreement by clicking an Agree button. To the effect that I do not find porn offensive or some such thing. And you know what? Even when I am falling into sin in this area I find myself virtually unable to agree to said agreement and end up leaving the site. Going on to view sites that have no such agreement. I am not proud of falling into such sometimes and I never pay to view any such sites but I share that to highlight how much I am convicted that God will hold me accountable to what I agree to. Such that even in the midst of falling into sin I cannot bring myself to agree to something which Is contrary to what God would want me to agree to. It should be no different with software licences I think. We should read them and know what we are agreeing to before any such agreement and if we do not like them or think ourselves unwilling or unable to abide by them we should not agree to them by clicking the Agree button. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 For those of you following this thread I have an update...... You know how my office manager told me a few days ago that our software is all legal on each computer? Well..... Today she got frustrated at how our Windows 98 computer was still not working right despite my best efforts and in a flurry of desire to get over our computer woes she asked me to call our Computer people and get a price from them to either upgrade our Windows 98 box or to buy a new one. Well I did and when I went back to her with the Computer people's suggestions (which were the same as mine by the way) she talked of keeping the price down by copying the Microsoft OS software that we got laying around somewhere unto a new computer with no OS on them. I then told her in as gentle a manner as possible that I would not install software illegally. I was willing to use such software in the performance of my job but I would not install it. A little later I also went back to her and encouraged her to get software installed legally so that our company would not be put at risk, however tiny that risk is. She listened but I don't think she was convinced. I think I did the right thing. Of course this now places me in a bit of a quandry. My boss does not pay much attentiion to detail. My office manager is absolutely indespensible to the company. And I now know wihout a doubt that the office manager will in all likelihood have some software installed illegally on our new computer. From the operating system itself on up to Excel, Word, and whatever other software we need. Do I mention this to my boss and alienate the office manager? Given the likelihood that my boss does not think anything of this type of thing either based on comments he has made to me about needing only one copy of software? I think I will just leave it at that and not tell the boss. I don't think it would do any good and would only serve to alienate my office manager who knows I am a Christian and with whom I work very closely with every day. Although I brought up what I did in this thread based on a hunch and nothing certain (as you pointed out Wayne) my hunches about such things are almost always dead on. As has proven to be true in this case. I am so glad that I started this thead and worked through what to do under certain circumstances in my own mind. For when it came down to it, I did not hesitate or beat around the bush and said what I needed to say. I also didn't say things in a way that would have laid a guilt trip on my office manager either. This kind of thing is absolutely rampant among smaller companies. I mean absolutely rampant. Those of you that work for large corporations who are very interested in covering their rears may not see it as much if at all but among small companies it is the norm. At least it has been in my experience. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 12, 2005 The problem comes in when, as a result of not knowing what you agreed to, you break said agreement in some way and are thus guilty of not letting your yes (to the agreement) be yes and your no (to the agreement (if you decline to accept it) be no. Does that make sense bro? Yup... ignornace of the law is NO excuse. My problem brother? I have a hard time reading anything except those things that I want to read. Even then, I struggle. I mean, I really struggle with a short attention span. Honestly, it would be a monumentous effort to read a software licensing agreement, worse than nails on a chalkboard. By the time I got to the 2nd paragraph, my mind has wandered elsewhere. I agree with you that by saying I AGREE when I haven't read what I am agreeing to is risky, which is why I am blessed to have MIS folks who do it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted January 12, 2005 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I am so glad that I started this thead and worked through what to do under certain circumstances in my own mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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