Guest shiloh357 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The JW's have some wrong interpretations. No, they don't merely have wrong interpretations. They reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ for a false Gospel. Their insistence that God only responds to the title "Jehova" isn't scripturally consistent. Their interpretation that Jesus was not the same as God while yet being separate at the same time is inconsistent. Their interpretation that Jesus was not raised with a physical body is inconsistent with the evidence we can see. All of this I agree with. But what we're really talking about here are interpretations of what we read in scripture. No, we are not talking about "interpretations." We are talking about them rejecting core biblical teachings altogether. There is nothing to "interpret" about whether or not Jesus was raised bodily from the dead. They reject what the Bible says and they reject it outright. For example, the Seventh Day Adventists believe Saturday is the only correct day to worship. If people worship God on a Sunday (or presumably any other day) they are wrong. Back in the day, people used the Bible to justify and promote slavery. Others have used the Bible to justify domestic violence, siting Paul's teachings about how the woman must be subject to the man, while others till have used it to promote war. Over the years the Bible has been used to justify all kinds of weird and wrong interpretations. They can all claim, "the Bible says so" and they all have their various proof texts to prove it. Some of them, getting carried away with religious fervor and with a certain flare of righteous indignation even suggest that questioning their various interpretations equated to questioning the Bible itself. You are comparing dissimilar things. There is a difference between two people who view slavery different from a biblical perspective. The JWs are not doing that. They are denying the core doctrines of Christianity. They don't believe the Bible much less, interpret it. Gray robe, you don't know what you're talking about. But what we really need to be looking for, to the question "are they Christian", is an interpretation which is consistent with the bigger picture; an interpretation which can account for all the verses and teachings rather than just a select few. They deny everything essential for salvation. They are not Christians. They reject the Gospel, pure and simple and no amount of twisting and contorting the issue on your part is going to change that fact. Given that you really don't understand the Gospel, I would question if you are really a Christian, yourself. The JW's believe that Jesus is the savior. They believe that Jesus died to pay for their sins and that Jesus was resurrected. They believe Jesus is the only begotten son of God, but they do not believe Jesus is equal to God. From what I can see, the JW's are not rejecting Jesus, but rather they are quite ignorantly assuming that if they cannot understand how God and Jesus can be one at the same time while at the same time being separate, then there must be some other explanation which their tiny human minds can understand, so they decided to settle on Jesus being the only begotten son of God, just not equal to God. No, they don't. They reject all of that. They have not accepted Jesus. Jesus is not accepted piece meal. You don't get to decide how you will accept Jesus. Jesus is God. You accept Him as God or don't accept Him at all. He doesn't offer any other options. If you say differently, you are wrong. I s this an ignorant and stubborn point of view? Yes. Just because we cannot understand something about God doesn't make the observation (i.e. that Jesus is the same yet different at the same time) untrue. Is it an offense worthy of hell? Maybe. It's up to God, but there is nowhere in scripture where Jesus says people will be condemned to hell if they do not believe he is equal to God. Wrong. Jesus offers Himself as God. If you reject Him as God, then you are calling Jesus a liar and if Jesus is a liar, then He can't save anyone because God doesn't lie. If you reject Jesus as God then it wasn't God on the cross dying our sins. If you reject Jesus as God, you reject His resurrection as well. Jesus' resurrection was the vindication of Jesus' claim to be God. The resurrection proves that everything Jesus said was true and you don't get to deny that essential truth but claim that you accept Jesus as something else. Cults accept Jesus as a good man, a great teacher and maybe a prophet but they reject Jesus as God. Jesus did not offer Himself to us a good man, or as a teacher or even as a prophet. Jesus offers Himself to us only ever as God. The JW's reject Jesus as He is presented in the Bible and that means they are not Christians. There are plenty of teachings about our need to accept Jesus, but "accepting" Jesus is far more than a theological statement that he is equal to God. The "Good Samaritan" showed his acceptance of Jesus through showing love for his neighbor. The sheep from Matthew 25 didn't even know they were helping God by helping those in need, yet God still rewarded them. It is more than accepting Jesus as God, yes, but you cannot accept Him on any other basis than the fact that He is God. Jesus' divinity is non-negotiable. Any acceptance of Jesus MUST be on the basis that He is God, as He claimed to be. Otherwise, you are calling Him a liar and why would anyone want to accept Jesus if they can't trust Him to tell the truth about who He is??? The sheep in that parable already accepted Jesus. They were not sheep because of what they did. They were sheep and as a result their behavior reflected that fact. You miss the point of that parable. The point of the parable was that Jesus identifies with His people, Israel. His "brethren" in need were the Jews and Jesus commends the sheep because when they were helping those Jews in need, they were in effect ministering to Christ. Jesus himself said, "whoever speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven, but who ever blasphemes the Holy spirit will not be forgiven". This is because Jesus knows how stubborn we can be when it comes to theology. We may reject some theological point of view, but God can still reach us through the holy spirit in a way that our conscious, stubborn mind can't. The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering etc... If I see someone exercising these fruits, then I must assume the Holy spirit is working in them, despite whatever wrong theological understanding they may have. Otherwise, I must assume there is some OTHER spirit out there mimicking the Holy Spirit and I dare say THAT would be far more of a dangerous theology than refusing to believe Jesus is equal to God Wow, you really have no grasp on Scripture at all... Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a rejection of the Holy Spirit in the earthly ministry of Christ. It has nothing to do with a rejecting a theological concept. Believing in Jesus as God isn't like believing in a particular rapture view or some other nonessential, finer point of theology. Rejection of Jesus as God completely undercuts one's ability to put faith in Jesus at all. If Jesus' claims to be God but one rejects Jesus' claim, they reject the basis on which Jesus must be accepted. I really doubt that you are a Christian yourself, because a true Christian would not be relegating the correct identity of Jesus to being nothing more than a minor, insignificant point of theology. Anyway, moving on... The JW's believe that Jesus was a real, flesh and blood man. The verses people have quoted about those who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus came in the flesh don't specifiy that it's Jesus' resurrected body which they are dealing with. This suggests that there IS at least some room for misunderstanding in how the verses are being applied to the JW's, since the JW's do acknowledge that Jesus came in the flesh, despite their belief that his resurrected body was spiritual. Actually that is also wrong. Those verses quoted were from passages dealing heresies in the first century that specifically denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus, the very same heresy that the JW's are promoting today. There is no room for misunderstanding on our part The evidence show's that Jesus was, in fact, resurrected with a physical body. This was precisely the reason he asked Thomas to touch his hands and side. And as Shiloh pointed out, Jesus ate fish with his very real, very physical mouth. I don't know why the JW's are so stubborn about this point. Maybe I'm still missing something in their interpretation. Right. That right there disqualifies you from this discussion. You don't know what they believe and you are trying to defend what they believe. You don't know what you are talking about and you are in an issue which is, frankly, over your head. But, an offence worthy of eternal damnation? Maybe. Once again it's up to God, but there simply is no teaching where Jesus says people will be lost if they refuse to believe he was resurrected with a physical body as opposed to a spiritual body. It's not even the resurrection which is in question but rather "how" he was resurrected. The whole argument just seems so petty, on par with the correct way to water baptize, through complete immersion or sprinkling or whatever. It is up to God and He has already made His will known in that matter. You act like we can't really know but we do know. God isn't hiding the truth from us. He didn't conceal this information. Those who reject the bodily resurrection of Jesus are incapable of receiving the Gospel and thus incapable of being true Christians. This isn't like the baptismal issue. This is about the resurrection which is the core doctrine and the singular pillar on which the Christian faith rests. So to argue this as a petty argument only shows that you really don't have a grasp on either Christian doctrine or the error of the JW's. The subject of this thead asked do these wrong understandings of Jesus' divinity and resurrection exclude them from being Christ-like (i.e. Christian)? It has been suggested that having a right undertanding of Jesus' divinity is the crux or the core of the Gospel; that this correct understanding of Jesus' divinity is THE Gospel, upon which everything else rests. Well, even this point of view is an interpretation based on what people have read in the Bible. The JW's have their interpretations. I have my interpretations. Other individuals on this forum have thier own interpretations. We all have our various interpretations. The question is whether our interpretations are consistent with the bigger picture. This is not a matter of interpretation at all. False teachers are always trying to muddy the water with the concept of "interpretations." Interpretation is not supplied by the reader, but by the author. The "interpretation" of a passage is the meaning the author intended to convey. But those who reject the core teachings of Scripture try to relegate everything to some nebulous cloud in the sky called "interpretation." That is what I see YOU doing, here. You can't really refute the Scriptures given, so your next course of action is to suggest that no one really knows what those Scriptures are saying and thus you attempt to muddy the waters. The Bible is very clear on the bodily resurrection of Jesus and Paul made it very clear that the resurrection of Jesus was essential to the Christian faith: He said: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. (1Co 15:14-19) If Jesus is not risen then our Christian faith is vain, empty hopeless. If Jesus is not risen, there is no Christian faith and all of those disciples who saw Jesus as the resurrected Son of God, were liars. The JW theology contradicts that very basic doctrine of Scripture, as do you. Ultimately Jesus' interpretation is the most significant. So what did Jesus say about what is the most important part of his ministry? When asked that question He said the two most important parts are to love God and to love our neighbor. He said everything else rests on those two parts. That's not an accurate reflection of what Jesus said. Jesus was asked what the two greatest commandments in the Law of Moses were. Jesus said that the greatest commandments were to love God and to love man. But those commandments are not fulfilled apart from Christ. You cannot love God or man as commanded unless you are born again. The fulfillment of loving God is to believe the Gospel and receive His salvation and become a child of God and only in that context can you truly love God and love others. There is no fulfilling of those two greatest commandments apart from genuine faith in Jesus. However, when I earlier suggested that despite the JW's wrong understanding on the theological position of Jesus' divinity, God could still look deep into their hearts and perhaps forgive them their petty misunderstandings on the basis of their sincere attemtps to love their neighbors. The response to that was to suggest I was promoting the infamous "salvation by works" heresey. Several people commented that showing love to our neighbors is nice, sure, but certainly not something which could forgive an unwillingness to claim Jesus is equal to God. In other words, if someone does not acknowledge Jesus as being equal to God, then no matter how much love they show to their neighbor, God will send them straight to hell. Yes, that's true; your views are heretical. The Gospel is not about what you do, but about what Christ has done for us. It centers on Jesus' sinless sacrifice of Himself, His death, burial and bodily resurrection, all of which is really denied by the JW's. The Gospel centers on the divinity of Jesus because a mere man cannot die for our sins. When Jesus was on the cross, God was on that cross, paying for our sins. The JW's don't believe that, and for that reason they are going to hell. You can do good works, you can give to charity and give someone the shirt off your back and that will not get you to heaven. That doesn't count toward salvation. Good works won't save anyone and any trusting in that idea that they were a loving person will discover that they put their faith in themselves and not in Jesus. It sounds to me like the second most important command has been replaced by another command; believe that Jesus is equal to God, and this is exactly what Jesus said people would do with his teachings. "The stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner". When we say that showing love for our neighbors has become a heresy (i.e. salvation by works), then we've well and truely thrown out the cornerstone and replaced it with some other lesser brick (i.e. salvation comes through believing that Jesus is equal to God). No one said that loving one's neighbor is a heresy. What we are saying is that replacing the core essentials of the doctrine of salvation with a view that loving your neighbor is more important to salvation than a genuine faith in Christ, amounts to heresy and a false gospel. You are trying to diminish the heart of the Gospel in favor of just being a good person as if that is really enough and that what one believes about Jesus isn't important. Sorry, but your teaching is rejected and is heretical in that you reject the core teachings of the Gospel and are diminishing the nature of Christ and making it subordinate to good works. Your views are not Christian are not supported by the Bible. No authentic follower of Jesus will accept what you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 The JW's have some wrong interpretations.... Their insistence that God only responds to the title "Jehovah" isn't scripturally consistent.... Their interpretation that Jesus was not the same as God.... while yet being separate at the same time is inconsistent.... Their interpretation that Jesus was not raised with a physical body is inconsistent.... All of this I agree with.... Is It Really By Accident Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:8-9 That Folk And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:9-11 Walk Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 And Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. Luke 7:47 That As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. John 15:9-12 We Love? Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for. ~ Charles Haddon Spurgeon http://founders.org/fj33/a-lesson-from-spurgeon-on-evangelism/ Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncn Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 6 Topic Count: 406 Topics Per Day: 0.09 Content Count: 5,248 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 1,337 Days Won: 67 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2015 Locked for review Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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