If salvation is the gift of God..

[JLW001]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums and I hope to have productive discussions with many of you.

As I was looking through the topics and forums I saw that some have taken a stand against the "once save always saved" doctrine. First I would like to say that I also did not believe this, but God has revealed to me the truth of His salvation and I thought that I would share some of it with you.

If salvation is the gift of God through our Lord Jesus Christ, then why would God take back his freely given gift. First, lets make clear that Jesus did the "works" required for our salvation. It was not given to us based on any merits that we might have. Because we have no part to perform in this tranaction "after all its a gift from God", then we can not do some sin that causes us to lose our salvation. Do born again Christians sin? Absolutley! Are we sinner? No! Why? Because the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all our sins. Is one sin worse than another to God? No! Sin is sin. So, if a born again Christian strays from God and sins, will they lose their salvation? Heaven Forbid! Each of us has a path of life that we will follow. We will go through good times and bad.

If you are saved and stray away from God you will not lose your salvation. However, if you do this you should watch out. Because just like human parents our Heavenly Father chastises those who dis-obey. Christ says somewhere (not sure where, but I'm not good at remembering verses) that He will not lose from His hand any that the Father has given Him.

Now, if an individual claims to be born again and then renounces God and becomes a Muslim or other religion are they saved. No. They were never truly part of the Christ.

How can you tell if someone is truly saved? Only the individual and God know the answer to that question.

I don't understand how anyone believes that someone truly saved can be lost. If it were dependent on something that we did, then none of us would be saved. I agree that you must have faith to be saved, there again God provides our faith. He is after all the author and finisher of our faith.

Again I look forward to many uplifting and stimulating conversations. May we all praise the most high God and His Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ.

In Love,

Jamie

Edited January 19, 2005 by JLW001

[Guest hubertdorm]

JLW001, as you most likely noticed from the other threads, this tends to become a heated discussion. Also, with any conversation concerning salvation, we can easily focus on minor points and fall off topic.

If salvation is the gift of God through our Lord Jesus Christ, then why would God take back his freely given gift.  First, lets make clear that Jesus did the "works" required for our salvation.  It was not given to us based on any merits that we might have.  Because we have no part to perform in this tranaction "after all its a gift from God", then we can not do some sin that causes us to lose our salvation.  Do born again Christians sin?  Absolutley!  Are we sinner?  No!  Why?  Because the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all our sins.  Is one sin worse than another to God?  No!  Sin is sin.  So, if a born again Christian strays from God and sins, will they lose their salvation?  Heaven Forbid!  Each of us has a path of life that we will follow.  We will go through good times and bad.

God does not take back anything. Yes, the forgiveness of sins is given freely. God does not take this away, yet some give it up to follow their own wickedness.

Jesus certainly did the work(s) required for salvation. I agree fully. I also concur that it is not given to us based on our effort and merit, for Paul was very clear that we can do nothing to earn our salvation. Tess has posted in other related threads the condition of man prior to redemption, and clearly illustrated that we are incapable of saving ourselves through obedience or good work.

However, this statement:

Because we have no part to perform in this tranaction "after all its a gift from God", then we can not do some sin that causes us to lose our salvation.

does not accurately teach the role we play. The gift that God gives is conditional. You can find statements in the New Testament such as, "If we confess our sins," or "Unless you repent," or "If you believe." While there is no "work" on our part, in the sense that we do not have to first earn this gift, God does require a commitment from us first.

The attitude that our actions and purity have nothing to do with holding on to our salvation is very dangerous.

Are we sinner?  No!  Why?  Because the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all our sins.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

I hope you can see how your belief does not align with the Bible. IF we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. We are not cleansed from sin if we are not living in accordance. Thus, our "works" don't earn us salvation, but they keep us walking in the light, and are necessary to be forgiven of the sins we will commit.

If you are saved and stray away from God you will not lose your salvation.  However, if you do this you should watch out.  Because just like human parents our Heavenly Father chastises those who dis-obey.  Christ says somewhere (not sure where, but I'm not good at remembering verses) that He will not lose from His hand any that the Father has given Him.

In a way, I agree. Each sin is a step away from God, though it does not cause one automatically to be "away" from God, in the sense of out of a relationship. Straying away, or "backsliding," isn't necessarily loss of salvation, but it can lead to one, depending on whether the person is brought back into repentance before his/her heart becomes totally depraved and rejects God fully.

Now, if an individual claims to be born again and then renounces God and becomes a Muslim or other religion are they saved.  No.  They were never truly part of the Christ.

I don't agree.

2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

James 5:19-20 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

It is certainly possible for a believer, born again, a child of God, to be carried away from the truth of the gospel into a religion of Satan. There are numerous instructions from the Bible teaching us to remain steadfast in the word so as to discern truth from fiction. These instructions have no purpose if it was not possible to be led astray.

It is not wrong to say that some who abandon the faith were never forgiven in the first place, but Jesus also taught it was possible to stop believing.

Luke 8:13 Those on the rock are ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

I don't understand how anyone believes that someone truly saved can be lost.  If it were dependent on something that we did, then none of us would be saved.  I agree that you must have faith to be saved, there again God provides our faith.  He is after all the author and finisher of our faith.

How can you account for the billions of unsaved souls on earth at this present time, and the unsaved billions on earth throughout the last two thousand years?

2 Peter 3:9 He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If God gives us faith which in turn automatically saves us, and we have no commitment required on our part first, then we make God out to be powerless who cannot save but only a few. This is why OSAS plays into Calvinism so well, because the entire doctrine teaches that Christ did not die for the entire world but only for a select few, and no one else can be saved through Christ except those on this "list," and the souls on that have no choice in their salvation. That is how they explain away the unsaved billions. "God doesn't want to save them."

[Guest hubertdorm]

John 15:1-10 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. NO branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. IF you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

[JLW001]

I'm thank you who have replied and taken the time to read my post.

I have a couple of comments.

The OSAS doctrine, if you will, should not be viewed as a license to live any way we want. First, if you are saved, then you will try to follow God and "walk in the light". Will you continually succeed? No. Will God help bring you toward a perfect walk with him? You bet. You can not say, "Ok, I'm saved, now I can live the way I want". You are not truly saved if you say this.

On the matter of election: Doesn't the bible mention that God is holding back the end events until all those who are to be saved , are saved. Understanding "salvation" through our Lord Jesus is important to understanding OSAS. If you read Paul's prophecies or those written in Revelation, its clear that when Jesus returns those who were saved and died will rise in the first resurrection. Happy are those who have part of the 1st resurrection. However, the Bible speaks of a 2nd resurrection of those who died without knowing Christ or being saved. They will face the White Throne Judgement and will be judged "each according to their works". Those who do not pass the litmus test of God are placed in Hell while those that do will live as humans on a new earth with God. Now, this means that if you are not saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, then you will face a judgement of their works. Just because you are not saved now doesn't mean you'll be damned to hell, but it means you may be. I don't know what God's cutoff point is between those judged worthy of human life and those not. Only in Christ is our guarantee of salvation and the promise of becoming more than human, someone united with God. Therefore, we you read," Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated", then you understand that God choses who he will. Romans 9 and 10 bear out the election or selection process of God for his salvation.

I've never heard anyone preach the White Throne Judgement this way, but as I was reading and studying one evening, God revealed it to me. The last aspect that the Bible leaves us with is that there will be God the Father, Jesus, and those who were saved by grace as spirit beings and an immortal race of humans living together in a new heavan and a new earth. Our only guarantee of being there is our salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ and that salvation is a calling to become the sons of God. There wqill be some humans who pass into immortality as humans after the white throne judgement. And all things we be made new again. There is such hope and wonderment in the end of Revelation!

God's truth is even more hopeful and love filled than most people preach on Sunday morning! So, I submit to you that there are those, who God has selected to be His children. Not because of any merits we have, but because of his glorious purpose. When we are saved, we are bought and paid for by the blood of our Lord Jesus. He will not lose any from his hand that the Father has given him.

[JLW001]

If you are saved, then you will bear fruit. The fruit, you notice, does not come from anything the branch does, but from the sap it receives from being bond with the vine. A branch that doesn't bear fruit is not in the vine and not receiving the sap. Therefore it does not bear fruit.

Just as James says that "faith without works is dead", he saying that you can not have works without faith and the faith produces works. So you can tell someone who really has faith from someone who "professes" faith by their works. So, if we are truly saved, by faith, from God, then or works or our fruit will be apparent. However, judgement about another's salvation is a dangerous thing to take part in. Note that God says you will be judged as you judge.

[Guest truebeliever7]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums and I hope to have productive discussions with many of you.

As I was looking through the topics and forums I saw that some have taken a stand against the "once save always saved" doctrine. First I would like to say that I also did not believe this, but God has revealed to me the truth of His salvation and I thought that I would share some of it with you.[\Quote]

If you are right about once saved always saved then what is Judgment day all about. There seems to be an opportunity to be sent to hell at that point.

Rev 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(NKJ)

May God Bless you

[JLW001]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums and I hope to have productive discussions with many of you.

As I was looking through the topics and forums I saw that some have taken a stand against the "once save always saved" doctrine. First I would like to say that I also did not believe this, but God has revealed to me the truth of His salvation and I thought that I would share some of it with you.[\Quote]

If you are right about once saved always saved then what is Judgment day all about. There seems to be an opportunity to be sent to hell at that point.

Rev 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(NKJ)

May God Bless you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The passage you quote is about the Great White Throne Judgement. That judgement is what people who have not been saved by Christ will face. That comes well after Christ's return to earth (which is when the 1st resurrection or the resurrection of those who were saved and died) and after the millenium of Reign by Jesus Christ on earth. See my reply a couple posts up to get a better explanation.

[Guest wilburnh]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums and I hope to have productive discussions with many of you.

The passage you quote is about the Great White Throne Judgement. That judgement is what people who have not been saved by Christ will face. That comes well after Christ's return to earth (which is when the 1st resurrection or the resurrection of those who were saved and died) and after the millenium of Reign by Jesus Christ on earth. See my reply a couple posts up to get a better explanation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One quick note to this reply, it says that everyone who's name was not found written in the book of life was cast into hell. To be in the book of life, you must be saved.

something else, you still haven't addressed why there are warnings against falling away in the Bible. You may not see the weight of this right away so I'll try to explain this. If OSAS is true, then there is no need to warn. If someone is truly saved, then they are encouraged to maintain the good fight in order to receive more rewards in heaven or to simply please God(no simple thing in and of itself). What's more, there would be scriptures saying that if you found yourself doing 'a', 'b', or 'c' then one should repent because he/she did not have a 'true' experience. However, as you no doubt know, this is not what we find in the Bible. The exact opposite is true. The Bible says that salvation can not be earned but says that once it has been given to you, be careful that you do not neglect it and lose it. This is easy to misunderstand and very hard to explain. The next section is the MOST IMPORTANT section I'm going to write.

The Bible telling chrictians to live right is not it contradicting itself with saying that salvation is not earned by works (notice is always says earned?). The jewish religion believes in salvation by works (rely on themselves). However, the christian view of salvation knows that salvation is a resulf of Christ and what he did for mankind, but he requires belief in the believer. If someone truly believes, then his or her actions are going to be different than someone who has lost their belief. This is the key. It gets back to, "show me you faith without works, and I'll show you my faith by my works" and "faith without works is dead being alone." Someone can say all they want that they believe and even put a good show on at church, however the real test comes in when they are tested. Do they abide even when it's not hard? If you do not, then there are several verses in the Bible that then apply to you.

I hope that I have been of some help. If I am vague (I was rushed for time may not have added something that I thought I had) then please feel free to email me at the listed address or at choytw@yahoo.com Thank you all

[JLW001]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums and I hope to have productive discussions with many of you.

The passage you quote is about the Great White Throne Judgement. That judgement is what people who have not been saved by Christ will face. That comes well after Christ's return to earth (which is when the 1st resurrection or the resurrection of those who were saved and died) and after the millenium of Reign by Jesus Christ on earth. See my reply a couple posts up to get a better explanation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One quick note to this reply, it says that everyone who's name was not found written in the book of life was cast into hell. To be in the book of life, you must be saved.

something else, you still haven't addressed why there are warnings against falling away in the Bible. You may not see the weight of this right away so I'll try to explain this. If OSAS is true, then there is no need to warn. If someone is truly saved, then they are encouraged to maintain the good fight in order to receive more rewards in heaven or to simply please God(no simple thing in and of itself). What's more, there would be scriptures saying that if you found yourself doing 'a', 'b', or 'c' then one should repent because he/she did not have a 'true' experience. However, as you no doubt know, this is not what we find in the Bible. The exact opposite is true. The Bible says that salvation can not be earned but says that once it has been given to you, be careful that you do not neglect it and lose it. This is easy to misunderstand and very hard to explain. The next section is the MOST IMPORTANT section I'm going to write.

The Bible telling chrictians to live right is not it contradicting itself with saying that salvation is not earned by works (notice is always says earned?). The jewish religion believes in salvation by works (rely on themselves). However, the christian view of salvation knows that salvation is a resulf of Christ and what he did for mankind, but he requires belief in the believer. If someone truly believes, then his or her actions are going to be different than someone who has lost their belief. This is the key. It gets back to, "show me you faith without works, and I'll show you my faith by my works" and "faith without works is dead being alone." Someone can say all they want that they believe and even put a good show on at church, however the real test comes in when they are tested. Do they abide even when it's not hard? If you do not, then there are several verses in the Bible that then apply to you.

I hope that I have been of some help. If I am vague (I was rushed for time may not have added something that I thought I had) then please feel free to email me at the listed address or at choytw@yahoo.com Thank you all

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please understand that you and I are but a hairsbreadth away from the same belief. I call those that do not produce fruit or those that do not TRY to live according to God's way NOT SAVED. However, I believe that it is God at work in us that causes us to believe and causes us to want to obey. God is the author and finisher of our faith, therefore if you believe, it is because God has given you that faith and if God gives you the faith, then you will produce works. Do you see the beauty of Gods plan.

Not one of us cam boast of himself saying that because we made the effort to believe we are saved, or because of our devotion to God and our hard work we are bearing fruit. NO! Its all because God led us to him, gave us the faith and grows our faith through trials and tribulations (pruning if you will), and the shed blood of His glorious and righteous Son that we have salvation. Glory to God in the Most High!

Please be sure to read my post on the White Throne Judgement. I agree that if your name is not in the book of life that you are lost. However, we who are saved will already be spirit (and in the book of life I might add) before this judgement takes place on those in the second resurrection.

Edited January 22, 2005 by JLW001

[irishcowboy]

Hello.  This is my first post on these forums and I hope to have productive discussions with many of you.

As I was looking through the topics and forums I saw that some have taken a stand against the "once save always saved" doctrine.  First I would like to say that I also did not believe this, but God has revealed to me the truth of His salvation and I thought that I would share some of it with you.

If salvation is the gift of God through our Lord Jesus Christ, then why would God take back his freely given gift.  First, lets make clear that Jesus did the "works" required for our salvation.  It was not given to us based on any merits that we might have.  Because we have no part to perform in this tranaction "after all its a gift from God", then we can not do some sin that causes us to lose our salvation.  Do born again Christians sin?  Absolutley!  Are we sinner?  No!  Why?  Because the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all our sins.  Is one sin worse than another to God?  No!  Sin is sin.  So, if a born again Christian strays from God and sins, will they lose their salvation?  Heaven Forbid!  Each of us has a path of life that we will follow.  We will go through good times and bad.

If you are saved and stray away from God you will not lose your salvation.  However, if you do this you should watch out.  Because just like human parents our Heavenly Father chastises those who dis-obey.  Christ says somewhere (not sure where, but I'm not good at remembering verses) that He will not lose from His hand any that the Father has given Him.

Now, if an individual claims to be born again and then renounces God and becomes a Muslim or other religion are they saved.  No.  They were never truly part of the Christ. 

How can you tell if someone is truly saved?  Only the individual and God know the answer to that question.

I don't understand how anyone believes that someone truly saved can be lost.  If it were dependent on something that we did, then none of us would be saved.  I agree that you must have faith to be saved, there again God provides our faith.  He is after all the author and finisher of our faith.

Again I look forward to many uplifting and stimulating conversations.  May we all praise the most high God and His Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ.

In Love,

Jamie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God will not take back the Gift of Salvation that has been offered to us, it is there for us, it is there for us to do with as we please, we can reject it or accept it as with any gift, there is no cost, just our choice to accept it or reject it....

after we have accepted it, we can either place it on the closet shelf with out ever opening it, or we can even open it and see what we have in this precious Gift....

we can even throw this gift away, those that have thrown this Gift away, have never really used what was in it, they have no idea what they held in their hands.

in the Gift of Salvation we have the Power of Prayer, we have the Power being delivered to us thru the Holy Spirit to perform our Christian duties, we have the Fruit of the Spirit, we have the Gifts of the Spirit. we have the Power to over come the evil one, we have the power in us for healing, and working of other miricles and discernment and of many many things that we have only begun to touch......

most people think that if they have prayed over some one that was sick and they was healed, that they have been given the Gift of the Spirit of Healing, not totally true...... every believer has that power..... the healing spoken of in the Gifts of the Spirit, are for those simular to having limbs restored, that of having persons raised from the dead..... the same with the Faith, super Faith ( so to speak ) as a Gift of the Spirit is that of dividing the waters, of walking on water, of standing fast when faces with hundreds or thousands of people against you.

the Gift of Salvation is ours to use, most people dont even hardly touch what is in their clutches, they are afraid of it.. they dont understand it...... we are afraid to step out beyond our comfort zones....

we can, give back this gift, we can throw out this gift, but why??? why woudl any one want to do that???

those that do, are ones that have not really enjoyed the gift......

God will not take it back, but will allow us to reject it or throw it out......

those that are not living for God will be the most apt to throw it our, to reject is, even after having it for a good while....

mike