If salvation is the gift of God..

[Guest PistosHuios]

God will not take back the Gift of Salvation that has been offered to us, it is there for us, it is there for us to do with as we please, we can reject it or accept it as with any gift, there is no cost, just our choice to accept it or reject it....

I'm going to throw a little wrench in here, not to sway the conversation, I do not want to sway your discussion by any means. I simply want to present my view.

I believe that God elects certain individuals unto salvation. Man is not condemned by his rejection of God the Son, but because he first rejected God the Father (i.e. Rom. 1) I do not believe that man is capable of choosing Christ unless God first does something (quickens) within the heart of man. The gift is there for us to do with what we please, but because we are wicked in our desires and dead toward the things of God, we naturally refuse the gift.

It is because of this that God must aliven us to the things of God (Eph 2. even while we were dead, John 3 we must be born of the Spirit) You are so right that it does not rest in our hands at all. It is by no works that we attain to our salvation, it is indeed a gift of God.

"To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." John 10.3,4 "

"...but you do not believe because you are not apart of my flock. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand." John 10:26-29

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness. but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" 2 Peter 3:9

God will bring those whom he has chosen unto himself, and none of them will be snatched from His hand. He waits patiently for all his elect to come to repentance, he will fulfill his promise.

That's my view, take it for what it's worth!!!

[JLW001]

God will not take back the Gift of Salvation that has been offered to us, it is there for us, it is there for us to do with as we please, we can reject it or accept it as with any gift, there is no cost, just our choice to accept it or reject it....

I'm going to throw a little wrench in here, not to sway the conversation, I do not want to sway your discussion by any means. I simply want to present my view.

I believe that God elects certain individuals unto salvation. Man is not condemned by his rejection of God the Son, but because he first rejected God the Father (i.e. Rom. 1) I do not believe that man is capable of choosing Christ unless God first does something (quickens) within the heart of man. The gift is there for us to do with what we please, but because we are wicked in our desires and dead toward the things of God, we naturally refuse the gift.

It is because of this that God must aliven us to the things of God (Eph 2. even while we were dead, John 3 we must be born of the Spirit) You are so right that it does not rest in our hands at all. It is by no works that we attain to our salvation, it is indeed a gift of God.

"To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." John 10.3,4 "

"...but you do not believe because you are not apart of my flock. My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand." John 10:26-29

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness. but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" 2 Peter 3:9

God will bring those whom he has chosen unto himself, and none of them will be snatched from His hand. He waits patiently for all his elect to come to repentance, he will fulfill his promise.

That's my view, take it for what it's worth!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great post! John10:26-29 sums up my view. Of those that God has chosen, not one will be lost. He gives them the faith to believe and grow. Our salvation is by belief in the Son and his resurrection and that ability to believe is given by God. If you are chosen then that faith will grow and allow you to produce fruit by staying connected to Jesus. Its all from God and in Roms. 9 and 10 God tells of his election of the saints and he says that we have no right to complain or question his decisions.

The plan of God is beautiful. He plans on making his children from us lowly humans, but he does not forsake the other humans. They will be judged according to how they lived (white throne judgement) and those worthy will be given eternal life as humans, but we of the elect are given a prize of such depth and magnitude that we can not even imagine it! Praise the Most High God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Glory to Jesus our Lord and Savior.

[Guest PistosHuios]

but he does not forsake the other humans. They will be judged according to how they lived (white throne judgement) and those worthy will be given eternal life as humans,

Well i do not believe this statement, and maybe I didn't clarify, but I believe that it is by God's grace of election unto faith alone that anyone is saved. For all have sinned and fall short, there is none righteous no not even one! (Rom 3.) Men, I believe, are such that they cannot choose Christ. It is not that God has "forsaken any" it is that they have forsaken him. We must not be so bold as to believe any of us deserves salvation, that would be no gift, salvation will not be earned nor will any be able to bost of true salvation.

As Paul declares in Romans 9:16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy." and one verse prior in 15 he says "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Jesus Christ declares in John chapter 6:65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the father"

No one "can" come to Christ unless the Father grants it. Those whom are not chosen, can not come to Chrsit. Their will is such that without God's grace they will not choose Christ. They do not understand the things of God, because they are of flesh.

Again, Paul declares the heart of man in Romans 3:10-18 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together the have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave they use their tongues to decieve. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of GOd before their eyes."

That, Paul declares is the state of man, how can anyone in that state come to Christ?

I just wanted to clarify that I do not beleive their are the elect, and then another group who will be judged "worthy" as humans. Man is not worthy, that is the very reason we need Christ.

Edited January 25, 2005 by PistosHuios

[Guest wilburnh]

We've all heard the scripture, "it is God's will that none should perish, but that all should come to eternal life." How does this jive with God only selecting a certain group to be saved? Think we need to be slow to jump to these conclusions.

I have a question I'd like you all to as yourselves. When you were saved, did you have to believe? We all agree that we can not save ourselves, but belief is not an act, it is a state of being. The same applies to the individual after they are saved, belief is still required.

There is a scripture in the Bible that says all good things that we work is the Holy Spirit working through us. I believe this whole heartedly and as a result, the scriptures concerning fruit in the believer can come into better clarity. One can now see that it is not the believer who produces the fruit but the Holy Spirit and as a result, the fruit that is produced is sign of how we are walking in Christ. Another example, "The branch can only produce fruit in me(the vine)" 1 corinthians and in the first six chapters (I'm extremely sorry, I don't have my Bible with me).

Another proof for the believer being able to lose faith/belief, is the example in the Bible that specifically warn the believer not to follow the unbeliever which will cause them to fall from their security. or in James 5:19 & 20 which says, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him; let him know that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his ways, shall save a soul from death and will hide a multitude of sins." This is specifically talking to someone who is following the truth and then turns away. You will see that if the individual is not turned then death awaits them. Another important scripture is james 1:14-16 which says: "for all men are tempted when they are drawn away of their own lusts and enticed; and when lust has conceived, it bringeth forth sin, and sin when it is finished bringeth death. Do not err my beloved brethren." This is another warning to show that all men can err and that if it is allowed to follow its natural course, it will lead to death. But the key is the warning that follows which says do not err my brethren. This single verse shows that the christian does not have to err. If they do not have to err(death as an end result) then they have the ability, through the Holy Spirit, to bypass death.

Another very important scripture is revelations 3. It starts out by saying, "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God." References to works and death. Now this does not mean that the Sardis's(sardisians? lol) were going to be spiritually dead because they were not doing enough good deeds, but rather, their spiritual walk was dying and as a result, the Holy Spirit was not able to work through them. It then goes on to say, "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Now there are many points in this passage. First it shows that their is the ability to defile our garments. Another is that the people in Sardis who had not dirtied their garments would walk with Christ, but not just that, but that their name will not be blotted out of the book of life. This holds dire implications to many a christian.

These are just a few scriptures that I can think of off the top of my head. I have pages and pages at home that I can share with you all. I hope you read all of this even though it's a bit long. If it is read in part, the concept will not be gotten and many a misguided response will be laid. Thank you all and enjoy.

Calvin

Edited January 25, 2005 by wilburnh

[irishcowboy]

but he does not forsake the other humans. They will be judged according to how they lived (white throne judgement) and those worthy will be given eternal life as humans,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry, that is not how it works.....

in 1st John, you can see where is stands that you have to have Christ. if you do not have Christ you do not have the Light and will be in darkness...

if you are For Christ, you have eternal life, if you do not have Christ, you do not have eternal life.....

it is true, that God wants no one to be lost, but the conditions are that we have Christ...... the Great White Throne Judgement is for those that are not found rightous..... the only way to be found rightous is thru Christ..... we can not work our way into Heaven.... if that were the case then Christ Jesus wasted His life for us, cause then we could do it on our own..... WE CAN NOT DO IT ON OUR OWN....

by the way, 1st John also speaks about those that try to deceive others into believing other doctrine then that of Jesus Christ..... ****ouch****

We've all heard the scripture, "it is God's will that none should perish, but that all should come to eternal life."  How does this jive with God only selecting a certain group to be saved?  Think we need to be slow to jump to these conclusions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God has not selected just a handful of people, God has Called us All.... each and every person on this earth. yes, every one....

Gods Word has been disiminated thru-out this world to every nation..... it is availible.... and God shows Himself in everything around us..... if we choose not to open our eyes, then that is our problem... if we do not choose Christ then we do not have eternal life.....

there have been many documented cases from missionaries that tribes / people they have come in contact with in fact, know of God, and also know of Christ Jesus, they may not know all the peticulars, but they know of Him..... people that have never seen anyone out side of their own close unit/family/tribe.....

THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER IS THRU THE SON...... sorry, but judgement day will be to send those not with Christ to the firey lake......

mike

[JLW001]

The White Throne Judgement takes place after the Millenial reign of Jesus Christ. At Jesus' return, those that died who were saved, are raised in the first resurrection. As Paul writes, those saved who are alive when he returns will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. All of us who are saved will be spirit beings during the millenium. The White Throne Judgement is for those people who were raised in the second resurrection. These are those who died without accepting Jesus as their savoir. They will be judged according to how they lived. Note that at the end of the Judgement, those who did not qualify to the standard God sets for this judgement will be cast into the lake of fire. Note that death is also cast into the lake of fire. There will be no more death.

In chapter 21 it is revealed that God will make his dwelling place with men (in KJV) or people (in NLT). These people will not die because death has been destroyed, but they will be simply human, while those of us chosen by God for being saved by Jesus Christ will be spirit beings.

Note that he city of New Jerusalem will come down from the heavens and land on the new earth. This all takes place after the millenium, after we are spirit beings, and after Jesus' return to our current earth with New Jerusalem.

What glorious things the Lord God has in store for us!

Please read and study this and you will find out the truth of this.

Rev 20:

11And I saw a great white throne, and I saw the one who was sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God

[Guest wilburnh]

I agree that we are all called, the statement was a reply to another who believes on a few can be saved because only a few are called.

However, I do disagree with you on the white throne judgement because the Bible says that those who are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. This statements allows for those who do have their name in the book of life, i.e. christians. In other words, the great white throne judgement is for all.

My belief is still being skewed. I do not believe that we get ourselves into heave. I know that we can not. However, once we are saved, the Holy Spirit makes himself evident in our lives by working good through us. As a result, we can see directly how we are walking by the faith we produce(show me thy faith without works and I shall show you my faith by my works. faith without works is dead. once again, this is not us, but the Holy Spirit). I hope this makes it all a bit clearer.

If there are still questions that you all have that seem blatantly obvious (i.e. I believe a christians gets him/herself into heaven, Jesus was not needed, etc.. then please re-read this and the last post).

[JLW001]

I'm astounded that you think that those Christians who are saved by the blood of Christ will also have to stand judgement in the White Throne Judgement according to their works. Will we be given eternal life through Jesus only to have to face a judgement according to our works as to whether we go to Hell or not? God forbid!

The determining factor in the WTJ (if you'll allow the abbreviation) is how the people lived. In fact they will be judged on their works. Now, just by that simple fact we know that the WTJ is not for those who are saved by the blood of Christ Jesus. We are saved by Jesus' works, by his perfection, not our own works. Yet those in the WTJ are judged according to their works. Do you see the contradition if you apply the WTJ to us saved by Christ?

The WTJ also takes place after the Millenium in which we will be spirit beings and ministering to those humans who are still alive. We are spared from the WTJ by Jesus Christ through whom our salvation comes. Do you not see the beauty of God's plan. Some he elects to be spirit being, the sons of God. Others will have be judged according to how they lived. Those whose name are in the book of life and are in the WTJ will be given life as a human being, not as a son of God.

Please read about the first resurrection and then study the 2nd resurrectiion that takes place before the White Throne Judgement. There are two distinct resurrections. Once you understand this, then the truth of the White Throne Judgement is revealed.

[irishcowboy]

However, I do disagree with you on the white throne judgement because the Bible says that those who are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.  This statements allows for those who do have their name in the book of life, i.e. christians.  In other words, the great white throne judgement is for all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Great White Throne Judgement is for those that are found to be unrightous, where they will be judged.....

the Judgements seat of the Lamb, is where the Followers will be judged, and their works placed to the fire..... the Followers are found to be rightous, and will be judged according to their works and their rewards presented at that time, the Crowns.....

those that are Raptured, are those that have already been found rightous, or they will not have been raptured.

those that stand before the White Throne Judgement will be those that are unrightous and will have sentence passed overthem at that time..... and the punishment is the Lake of Fire.

in the physical world, with the measurements given for the New Jerusalam, it is guestimated that each person will have about 1/3 of mile space if everyone was evenly spaced out, and that it appears to be like that of a cube....

look at what the new city will look like, what it is built of, mostly what we would concider precious stones and gems and such, makes a person wonder if the things we find on this earth now are nothing more then just scraps of building material that was left over from the building of the New Jerusalam.

streets of the most pure gold, the gates, done in a single pearl, the Jasper, and all the other things we hold precious.

[Arthur Durnan]

Quite to the contrary of one or two postings, this particular observer sees the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20 as being for the unsaved only, and the Bema Judgment Seat of Christ of Romans 14:12, etc, as being for Christian believers only. If one appears at the former, one will never appear at the latter, and conversely if one appears at the latter, one will never appear at the former. I understand that the Bema Judgment Seat occurs immediately after the glorious Rapture of the Church and prior to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I view the Great White Throne Judgment for the unsaved as taking place at the conclusion of the Millennium.

As for God's everlasting salvation, I see it as precisely that: everlasting salvation. I cannot find any instance in Holy Writ where the Lord offers only temporal salvation. Further, there isn't even one example so stated in the Scriptures of Truth wherein we are told that a person who was once saved is now unsaved, or more profoundly, an example of an individual who was once saved is now lost AGAIN after having been "re-saved" after his or her first instance of losing their everlasting salvation.

Again the words of our matchless Lord & Saviour should emphatically seal this particular matter.....Jesus Himself assures us that we who belong to Him by faith "shall never, never, never (Greek, comay, a TRIPLE NEGATIVE) perish" and that "no man will pluck us out of His hand." I surely bow to His glorious promise.

Thank You, Lord Jesus for your everlasting salvation!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com