The term " Born Again Christian " is unbiblical

[thilipsis]

On Sunday, November 27, 2016 at 0:25 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus is telling Nicodemus, that anyone who believes in him after his death on the Cross, will have a Heavenly inheritance together with him, he must earn the Heavens first , he must die on the Cross first, give himself up as the Attoning sacrifice for all people . 

The question Jesus is answering is what is new birth. Of course he makes reference to the crucifixion but the emphasis is on the Holy Spirit to make the believer a New creature in Christ. This isn't really clear in the Old Testament, they were commanded to obey the Law period. There was just one problem all of us are ' by nature objects of wrath', that old nature cannot receive the things of God. 

Interesting word 'atonement', William Tyndale actually invented it. It means 'at one moment'. it's the idea of the blood being sprinkled on the mercy seat once a year. It was the only time anyone entered the holy of holies. 

We are aware that we receive the righteousness of God by faith, but the old wineskin can't hold it. That's why you must be born again. Gods not reforming the old nature he is replacing it.

[Your closest friendnt]

20 hours ago, thilipsis said:

The question Jesus is answering is what is new birth. Of course he makes reference to the crucifixion but the emphasis is on the Holy Spirit to make the believer a New creature in Christ. This isn't really clear in the Old Testament, they were commanded to obey the Law period. There was just one problem all of us are ' by nature objects of wrath', that old nature cannot receive the things of God. 

Interesting word 'atonement', William Tyndale actually invented it. It means 'at one moment'. it's the idea of the blood being sprinkled on the mercy seat once a year. It was the only time anyone entered the holy of holies. 

We are aware that we receive the righteousness of God by faith, but the old wineskin can't hold it. That's why you must be born again. Gods not reforming the old nature he is replacing it.

The Jews were not born from above, there is not one Jew ever that he has claimed that is born from above. 

This promise was never made to Abraham not even to Moses, who introduce the Law later on.

The believer in Jesus Christ is born from above, and that's because Jesus open a door in the partition between man and God. 

Do you want to have a Heavenly inheritance, a place to go at the time of your death, believe Jesus Christ, no need to imitate him, just believe that he died on the Cross , for your sins. 

Jesus has more blessings for the believer while he lives on earth. 

Jesus has the blessing that comes with repentance, the fellowship of other believers, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

But there is one thing to hold on to it. The only prerequisite to have a place in Heaven, to be a co-heir of Heaven together with Jesus, is to believe in Jesus Christ. 

(and remember that the devil is not part of this blessing, so for him there is no hope, Jesus redeems only mankind, just remember that), 

They are many who hold other ideologies , but the truth remains whether they have come to understand or not, or no matter what they believe in that matter, Jesus is the one, the way , and the door to Heaven. 

The door to Heaven is open for the believer in Jesus Christ , hope that you do not see it close, and believe that you need the key of dedication, or repentance and or of change of life to good works, and or something else , even your tears. 

 that Heavens is inherited only by faith in Jesus Christ and without your earthly body, that's why we have to wait to die first before we go to be with him forever , and if we are going to be with him forever, we do not need the Holy Spirit in Heaven, because the evil spirit is not there. 

We are in the same place with Jesus. All the Angels the other believers, and of course something is missing in Heaven, there is not material things, and the Devil, or his Spirit. And of course our earthly body . 

 

[delade3]

On 8/24/2015 at 2:08 AM, shiloh357 said:

Yeah, I get that.   The problem is that you claim it is unbiblical simply because the phrase, "born again Christian"  doesn't specifically appear the text.  All you are doing is splitting hairs.

That fact doesn't make it "unbiblical."   Something is "unbiblical"  when it goes against the Bible  and some way contradicts the Bible's teaching.   "Born again Christian"  although being a redundant term, isn't "unbiblical.

The word "grandfather"  doesn't appear in the Bible either.   Should we assume that is unbiblical too?    A little commonsense goes a long way...

I'm sorry but I don't think that he claimed 'it' as unbiblical.    His statement was:

"Too often I come across the term " Born Again Christian " .

The term will not be found in the Bible .

The term is actually theological nonsense......Just think about it......it doesn't make sense.....it was never used by Jesus ."

 

(And surely the term, 'Born again Christian' is not in the Bible).  This is a true statement. 

 

 

Theology is not the study of being biblical or not biblical.  You don't have to be a believer to know theology.  

Edited December 8, 2016 by delade3

[thilipsis]

On 11/30/2016 at 2:19 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

The Jews were not born from above, there is not one Jew ever that he has claimed that is born from above. 

This promise was never made to Abraham not even to Moses, who introduce the Law later on.

I'm not so sure, by the works of the law none can be made righteous, the righteousness of God in Christ was revealed in the New Testament (Rom. 3:21). The Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith just as we are (Rom. 4:5), specifically Paul illustrates this through Abraham (Rom. 3:3) and David (Rom. 3:6)

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)

On 11/30/2016 at 2:19 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

The believer in Jesus Christ is born from above, and that's because Jesus open a door in the partition between man and God. 

Do you want to have a Heavenly inheritance, a place to go at the time of your death, believe Jesus Christ, no need to imitate him, just believe that he died on the Cross , for your sins. 

Jesus has more blessings for the believer while he lives on earth. 

Jesus has the blessing that comes with repentance, the fellowship of other believers, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

But there is one thing to hold on to it. The only prerequisite to have a place in Heaven, to be a co-heir of Heaven together with Jesus, is to believe in Jesus Christ. 

(and remember that the devil is not part of this blessing, so for him there is no hope, Jesus redeems only mankind, just remember that), 

They are many who hold other ideologies , but the truth remains whether they have come to understand or not, or no matter what they believe in that matter, Jesus is the one, the way , and the door to Heaven. 

The door to Heaven is open for the believer in Jesus Christ , hope that you do not see it close, and believe that you need the key of dedication, or repentance and or of change of life to good works, and or something else , even your tears. 

 that Heavens is inherited only by faith in Jesus Christ and without your earthly body, that's why we have to wait to die first before we go to be with him forever , and if we are going to be with him forever, we do not need the Holy Spirit in Heaven, because the evil spirit is not there. 

We are in the same place with Jesus. All the Angels the other believers, and of course something is missing in Heaven, there is not material things, and the Devil, or his Spirit. And of course our earthly body . 

 

The Old Testament saints were saved and no one was ever justified (made righteous) by the Law of Moses:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16)
 

Quote

The believer in Jesus Christ is born from above, and that's because Jesus open a door in the partition between man and God. 

That's all very true but the believers in the Old Testament looked forward to the atonement just as we look back to the cross.

Quote

Do you want to have a Heavenly inheritance, a place to go at the time of your death, believe Jesus Christ, no need to imitate him, just believe that he died on the Cross , for your sins. 

Jesus has more blessings for the believer while he lives on earth. 

Jesus has the blessing that comes with repentance, the fellowship of other believers, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 

But there is one thing to hold on to it. The only prerequisite to have a place in Heaven, to be a co-heir of Heaven together with Jesus, is to believe in Jesus Christ. 

(and remember that the devil is not part of this blessing, so for him there is no hope, Jesus redeems only mankind, just remember that), 

They are many who hold other ideologies , but the truth remains whether they have come to understand or not, or no matter what they believe in that matter, Jesus is the one, the way , and the door to Heaven. 

The door to Heaven is open for the believer in Jesus Christ , hope that you do not see it close, and believe that you need the key of dedication, or repentance and or of change of life to good works, and or something else , even your tears. 

 that Heavens is inherited only by faith in Jesus Christ and without your earthly body, that's why we have to wait to die first before we go to be with him forever , and if we are going to be with him forever, we do not need the Holy Spirit in Heaven, because the evil spirit is not there. 

We are in the same place with Jesus. All the Angels the other believers, and of course something is missing in Heaven, there is not material things, and the Devil, or his Spirit. And of course our earthly body .

This is how salvation works:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13,14)

Salvation is actually in two parts, you are justified by grace through faith and then sanctification (being made holy) must follow. The Old Testament saints clearly were justified by grace through faith and sanctification was the whole point of the Levitical system

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. (1 Peter 1:16 Lev. 11:44,45; 19:2)

Now not everyone in the Old Testament was promised the Holy Spirit and we have a fuller dispensation and more complete revelation by how people are saved has never changed. Jesus is not just the Messiah who was crucified outside Jerusalem in the first century:

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

The Old Testament saints were justified, sanctified and walked in the fear of the Lord. Jesus sacrifice was as good as done before the earth was ever created, based on a promise. This promise was fulfilled in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, even the angels when they drive out the Dragon (Satan) and his angels they overcome by the blood of the Lamb.

David knew about the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit:

Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me (Ps. 51:10)

It's the Holy Spirit that makes us born again, we are saved the way all sinners are saved, always have been saved and always will be saved. You hear the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit of promise and you are washed, renewed and regenerated. I think it's going a little too far to say none of the Old Testament saints were born again, I'm getting a very different picture from the New Testament.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Your closest friendnt]

11 hours ago, thilipsis said:

I'm not so sure, by the works of the law none can be made righteous

Those under the Law, had the righteousness of the Law, the fruit of obedience to the Law was to have the righteousness of the Law. 

Quote

, the righteousness of God in Christ was revealed in the New Testament (Rom. 3:21).

John 1:16,17

1:16, and of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

1:17, for the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 

Quote

The Old Testament saints

I am not quite sure what period the OT Saints lived, and why they are called Saints and by what standard.

As it is, is confusing.

 

Quote

were justified by grace through faith just as we are

This statement can not be deduced from Paul,s statements. 

Paul never used the word Grace for Abraham , faith yes, but not in the Gospel, that says Jesus Christ died and raised from the dead. 

For many obvious reasons. 

The righteousness of Jesus Christ was revealed later, at the same time the new man in Christ was revealed. 

Under the new covenant, the covenant ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ. 

(This is not possible for too many reasons, (that the OT people were having the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and taken to Heaven at the time of their death, this is a complete departure from the truth. No one from the OT believed that, you have to think about that a little more. 

Jesus sent off his disciples to declare the good news of the Gospel, with the great commission after his resurrection , when all authority was given to him. 

Quote

(Rom. 4:5), specifically Paul illustrates this through Abraham (Rom. 3:3) and David (Rom. 3:6)

Paul speaks to the contrary of your statement. Everyone in the OT descended to Seol, no one ascended in Heaven before Jesus Christ. 

Quote

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)

This is about the Believers of Jesus Christ , beginning with the new covenant. After Jesus Christ was made the heir of Heaven . After he open the Heavenly door for mankind . 

Quote

The Old Testament saints were saved and no one was ever justified (made righteous) by the Law of Moses:

They were saved together with everyone else, who believed that Jesus was the Christ, and they welcome Jesus a their deliver from their captivity in Sheol , Hades. 

Jesus died for all, and he descended to Seol, Hades and he preached the Gospel to all who had died before him, 

The dead shall hear my voice and will rise first , before the living .

And that's what happened, the dead before Jesus, heard the Gospel and were Saved before the living . 

 

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16)
 

That's all very true but the believers in the Old Testament looked forward to the atonement just as we look back to the cross.

No one had the righteousness of Jesus Christ,  before Jesus shed his blood on the Cross.

No one was under the blood of Jesus before Jesus died, and how anyone can be under his blood when Jesus was not even born yet. 

That's why the Jews had the animals, old covenant, and the Gentiles nothing, just waiting for the new covenant. 

Quote

This is how salvation works:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13,14)

Salvation is actually in two parts, you are justified by grace through faith and then sanctification (being made holy) must follow. The Old Testament saints clearly were justified by grace through faith and sanctification was the whole point of the Levitical system

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. (1 Peter 1:16 Lev. 11:44,45; 19:2)

Now not everyone in the Old Testament was promised the Holy Spirit and we have a fuller dispensation and more complete revelation by how people are saved has never changed. Jesus is not just the Messiah who was crucified outside Jerusalem in the first century:

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

The Old Testament saints were justified, sanctified and walked in the fear of the Lord. Jesus sacrifice was as good as done before the earth was ever created, based on a promise. This promise was fulfilled in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, even the angels when they drive out the Dragon (Satan) and his angels they overcome by the blood of the Lamb.

David knew about the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit:

Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me (Ps. 51:10)

It's the Holy Spirit that makes us born again, we are saved the way all sinners are saved, always have been saved and always will be saved. You hear the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit of promise and you are washed, renewed and regenerated. I think it's going a little too far to say none of the Old Testament saints were born again, I'm getting a very different picture from the New Testament.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

 

Edited December 17, 2016 by Your closest friendnt
Spelling

[thilipsis]

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thhaunder the Law, were required to have the righteousness of the Law, the fruit of obedience to the Law was to have the righteousness of the Law. 

There are just so many reasons this is contrary to what the New Testament reveals about the righteousness of God:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16)

No flesh shall be justified or ever was. You could be blameless under the law by the righteousness the Law witnessed to can only be by grace.

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

John 1:16,17

1:16, and of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.

1:17, for the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 

I am not quite sure what period the OT Saints lived, and why they are called Saints and by what standard.

As it is, is confusing.

Saints is really a New Testament word, used only once and it is the plural form of 'holy'. I'm not talking about someone who is an elite spiritual champion. By the way, there was nothing wrong with the Law of Moses, even Paul said it's holy, righteous and good. The problem is that we are not so the Law brings us under conviction that we are in fact sinners. God can reveal this to us in a lot of ways, the witness of conscience for instance. Righteousness is a gift of grace, it always has been, it's not something you achieve, it's something you receive.

 

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

This statement can not be deduced from the Paul,s statements. 

Paul never used the word Grace for Abraham , faith yes, but not in the Gospel, that says Jesus Christ died and raised from the dead. 

I honestly don't know where you are getting this:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. (Rom. 4:16-17)

This passage specifically says, 'by grace', you might want to take another look at Romans 4.

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

For many obvious reasons. 

The righteousness of Jesus Christ wrevaluatiolater, at the same time the new man in Christ was revealed. 

Under the new covenant, the covenant ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ. 

(This is not possible for too many reasons, (OT people having the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and taken to Heaven at the time of their death, this is complete departure from the from the truth. No one from the OT believe that, you have to think about that a little more. 

I've thought about it a lot actually, indeed the covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ that cleanses all who believe by grace through faith. The New Testament could not be clearer about this, Paul's whole argument in the doctrinal part of Romans is based on justification by grace through faith. If the Old Testament saints were not taken to heaven we are left wondering where they might have been because there is only one other option.

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Jesus sent off his disciples to declare the good news of the Gospel, with the great commission after his resurrection , when all authority was given to him. 

Paul speaks to the contrary of your statement. Everyone in the OT descended to Seol, no one ascended in Heaven before Jesus Christ.

Sheol was used interchangably with death and the grave, it's actually a transliteration of a Hebrew word for death and the grave. Not a lot was revealed about the after life in the Old Testament but there is nothing indicating they were denied admittance to heaven.

 

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is about the Believers of Jesus Christ , beginning with the new covenant. After Jesus Christ was made the heir of Heaven . After he open the Heavenly door for mankind . 

No one was redeem before Jesus shed his blood on the Cross.

No one was under the blood of Jesus before he die, and how anyone be under his blood when Jesus was not even born yet. 

That's why the Jews had the animals, old covenant, and the Gentiles nothing, just waiting for the new covenant. 

 

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Heb. 10:4)

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)

Again, I have no idea where you are getting this. Now I must admit that the New Testament changed things forever, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ was and is the apex of redemptive history. Those Old Testament sacrifices were shadows of things to come and by faith believers in the Old Testament awaited Christ just as we await his return. The Old Testament saints didn't know all the plans and purposes of God, how could they? What they did know was that the one who makes the promise is faithful and we entered into that tradition of grace through faith with a fuller revelation.

Grace and peace,
Mark

[Your closest friendnt]

27 minutes ago, thilipsis said:

There are just so many reasons this is contrary to what the New Testament reveals about the righteousness of God:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16)

No flesh shall be justified or ever was. You could be blameless under the law by the righteousness the Law witnessed to can only be by grace.

Saints is really a New Testament word, used only once and it is the plural form of 'holy'. I'm not talking about someone who is an elite spiritual champion. By the way, there was nothing wrong with the Law of Moses, even Paul said it's holy, righteous and good. The problem is that we are not so the Law brings us under conviction that we are in fact sinners. God can reveal this to us in a lot of ways, the witness of conscience for instance. Righteousness is a gift of grace, it always has been, it's not something you achieve, it's something you receive.

 

I honestly don't know where you are getting this:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. (Rom. 4:16-17)

This passage specifically says, 'by grace', you might want to take another look at Romans 4.

I've thought about it a lot actually, indeed the covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ that cleanses all who believe by grace through faith. The New Testament could not be clearer about this, Paul's whole argument in the doctrinal part of Romans is based on justification by grace through faith. If the Old Testament saints were not taken to heaven we are left wondering where they might have been because there is only one other option.

Sheol was used interchangably with death and the grave, it's actually a transliteration of a Hebrew word for death and the grave. Not a lot was revealed about the after life in the Old Testament but there is nothing indicating they were denied admittance to heaven.

 

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Heb. 10:4)

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)

Again, I have no idea where you are getting this. Now I must admit that the New Testament changed things forever, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ was and is the apex of redemptive history. Those Old Testament sacrifices were shadows of things to come and by faith believers in the Old Testament awaited Christ just as we await his return. The Old Testament saints didn't know all the plans and purposes of God, how could they? What they did know was that the one who makes the promise is faithful and we entered into that tradition of grace through faith with a fuller revelation.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hello Mark, we have to make ago at it again. 

At some point I think you misunderstood me. 

I understand that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, as Paul explain it. 

This is for us who live and believe in Jesus Christ after the resurrection. 

How about all the rest of the people, not just Abraham, Isaac , Jacob, and the Israelites, 

How about the Gentiles who lived and die before the death of Jesus . 

What the scriptures say about the Patriarch Abraham, who was under a covenant (not the new covenant), was he promised a Heavenly inheritance , did the Lord promise to him that he will give him the Heavens as his inheritance and for his children, 

Did the Lord made promises to Abraham , the same Kind Jesus Christ made to those who believe in him.

No he did not, only he promised that he will give to him the Land of Canaan as his inheritance. 

Abraham did not have the life of God in him, he was not one with God , he was separated from God, and he died being separated from God. 

And this is true for all his children, and Jacob and his children, before and after the Law of Moses, 

They did not have the life of God, they were Spiritually dead . 

Life , the eternal life, came with Jesus Christ, and only after his death. 

Spiritually dead people do not go to heaven, that's why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born from above, from the Spirit of God, to be one with God. And that's is by believing in Jesus Christ. 

Jesus told Nicodemus that no one is born from above , and that will happen only after  he will be lifted up and die in the cross . 

Abraham and all the rest, including the so called Saints, were not under the new covenant while they lived and before they die. They were dead to God, they did not ascent at the time of their death , they descent the same way Jesus descended at the time of his death .

 

[Guest shiloh357]

4 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

Abraham and all the rest, including the so called Saints, were not under the new covenant while they lived and before they die. They were dead to God, they did not ascent at the time of their death , they descent the same way Jesus descended at the time of his death .

 

Actually the NT tells us that Abraham's faith in God was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness.   Salvation, even in the OT, was by grace through faith.  They didn't have all of the light we have, but they were saved the same way we are and Paul makes that point in Romans 4:

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
(Rom 4:20-25)

God imputes His righteousness to us on the basis of our faith just like He did with Abraham, and that would have been true for those in the OT who put their faith in God. 

The notion that they had to believe on Jesus the same way do, is simply not true.  They walked in the light they had and God counted their faith as righteousness.

[thilipsis]

8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hello Mark, we have to make ago at it again. 

At some point I think you misunderstood me. 

I understand that we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ, as Paul explain it. 

This is for us who live and believe in Jesus Christ after the resurrection. 

How about all the rest of the people, not just Abraham, Isaac , Jacob, and the Israelites, 

How about the Gentiles who lived and die before the death of Jesus . 

What the scriptures say about the Patriarch Abraham, who was under a covenant (not the new covenant), was he promised a Heavenly inheritance , did the Lord promise to him that he will give him the Heavens as his inheritance and for his children, 

Did the Lord made promises to Abraham , the same Kind Jesus Christ made to those who believe in him.

No he did not, only he promised that he will give to him the Land of Canaan as his inheritance. 

Abraham did not have the life of God in him, he was not one with God , he was separated from God, and he died being separated from God. 

And this is true for all his children, and Jacob and his children, before and after the Law of Moses, 

They did not have the life of God, they were Spiritually dead . 

Life , the eternal life, came with Jesus Christ, and only after his death. 

 Certainly the New Testament does represent the fullness of God's redemption and of course things changed dramatically since the time of the Patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). God's revelation to them was direct, it changed in the time of Moses as they entered into a new covenant:

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty (ʼêl, ale אֵל H410), but by my name the LORD ( יְהֹוָה Yĕhovah H3068)I did not make myself fully known to them. (Ex. 6:3)

It would change again with the rise of the prophets, particularly the eighth century prophets and again at the time when they returned from Babylon. During the time of the Patriarchs God enters into a covenant with them individually as God Almighty, during the Exodus God enters into a new covenant with the nation as Yĕhovah. With the prophets the covenant was broken and during the time of Ezra the covenant is reestablished. Sure it changes but fundamentally salvation isn't going to change. We know that they were justified by faith and that was followed by sanctification, perhaps the term 'born again' represented something more extensive, certainly as a promise to all believers but what it represents in the Old Testament isn't all that different, just a fulfillment of the Old Testament promises.  

8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Spiritually dead people do not go to heaven, that's why Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born from above, from the Spirit of God, to be one with God. And that's is by believing in Jesus Christ. 

Jesus told Nicodemus that no one is born from above , and that will happen only after  he will be lifted up and die in the cross . 

Abraham and all the rest, including the so called Saints, were not under the new covenant while they lived and before they die. They were dead to God, they did not ascent at the time of their death , they descent the same way Jesus descended at the time of his death .

 

 

When we are talking about Sheol in the Old Testament it's usually death and the grave, that was pretty much the end as an ancient Hebrews understood it. They had some concept of life after death but it wasn't until Jesus came that anything was really known about it. Certainly heaven and hell were major revelations but Jesus made the clear difference in the condition of the saints and the children of perdition here:

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. (Luke 16:22-23)

Abraham and the beggar are obviously not in hell. The word for where the rich man was is Hades which corresponds with Old Testament Sheol:

"the region of departed spirits of the lost" (but including the blessed dead in periods preceding the ascension of Christ). It has been thought by some that the word etymologically meant "the unseen" (from a, negative, and eido, "to see"), but this derivation is questionable; a more probable derivation is from hado, signifying "all-receiving." It corresponds to "Sheol" in the OT. (Vines Dictionary, Hades G86)

There's just no Scripture supporting the idea that Old Testament saints did not go to heaven, certainly they were not in Sheol. Sheol was the abode of the dead and God is the God of the living:

And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” You are badly mistaken! (Mark 12:26-27)

I think Old Testament saints where sanctified spiritually but actually being a new creature in Christ, that's largely a matter of conjecture. I certainly see nothing in Scripture indicating that the departed, saved or unsaved, where anywhere other then heaven or hell.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[thilipsis]

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Actually the NT tells us that Abraham's faith in God was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness.   Salvation, even in the OT, was by grace through faith.  They didn't have all of the light we have, but they were saved the same way we are and Paul makes that point in Romans 4:

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
(Rom 4:20-25)

God imputes His righteousness to us on the basis of our faith just like He did with Abraham, and that would have been true for those in the OT who put their faith in God. 

The notion that they had to believe on Jesus the same way do, is simply not true.  They walked in the light they had and God counted their faith as righteousness.

Well justification seems straightforward enough, Paul discusses that at length. I think what we are struggling with here is sanctification. The question is simple enough, since we must be new creatures in Christ and born again of the Spirit of God, what about Old Testament believers. We know that sanctification was part of the Mosaic Law and the Levitical system but how was it different for them?

I really don't know what salvation was like for them with regards to the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. The process had to be different but the underlying principles had to be very close. The question in essence is were they born again, Jesus did seem to think Nicodemus should have known about this.

Grace and peace,
Mark