Dear friends in Christ....

[OrthodoxCatholic]

Hey,

[Guest racer]

OrthodoxCatholic,

So, now you shame me with kindness. . .  :blush: So, guess I'll play nice.  Just to give you a little more information.  I have asked questions, read the fathers, the Catechism, and various other RC literature, I now have a RC Bible, etc . . . .

I have driven some of the most patient RC friends to the brink of madness.  Basically, I have come to the conclusion, that if my daughter does convert, she won't become a canabalistic idol worshipper.  She'll be okay, as long as she keeps God in focus and doesn't get distracted by the wayside.

[JohnS]

Who knows, you might even join us converts!    

I'm not sure I understand. Can you be saved and not be a Catholic?

One does not grow into the fullness of the image of God by sitting around that thinking nice thoughts about Jesus and how He died on the Cross for our sins.  That is the Protestant idea of justification.

Growing into the fullness of the image of JESUS is sanctification. Justification is all about believing on Jesus and how He died on the cross for our sins.

Do you notice that Jesus teaches us that being children of the heavenly Father involves what we DO (works).  It involves ACTING LIKE OUR FATHER.  We copy what He does in acts of doing good, especially to those who hate us.

It's not an act, it's not just mimicry.

There is such a fine line here. I think we've seen both ends of the spectrum recently. Calvinsts arguing that it's nothing we do and now it's nothing God does. It's up to me to keep my salvation after it is given. I don't think anyone is arguing against works. We were created for good works.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good worksEph 2:10

And this is really harsh.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10.

We are to become like our Father in Heaven.   That is what being a child is all about.

I have learned so much from watching my son grow. Being a child is all about total dependence. It's about reaching up for a strong hand when you are in trouble, it's about not worrying if the next meal is coming. But the best times are just talking with him and loving him. Maybe he will grow up and be like me, I don't know. I just hope and pray he comes to know Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

[Guest Albertus]

orthodoxcatholic,

A covenant is an agreement between two parties.

I suggest you read Gen. 15.

Abram asked God a question. In response he was told to prepare a sacrifice. In Abraham's  days after the sacrafice was prepared the two parties would walk between the divided pieces thus sealing the agreement.

At sundown something happens. God causes Abraham to sleep. During this time He reveals part of the future to Abraham. Then while Abraham is asleep a smoking furnace and a burning lamp pass between  the sacrifice thus sealing the agreement.

I trust you will think  about,

1. Who initiated the covenant.

2. Who sealed the covenant.

3. Were there specific requirements in the agreement binding

    for both parties.

In Jesus love, Albertus.

[OrthodoxCatholic]

A covenant is an agreement between two parties.

I suggest you read Gen. 15.

Wrong.  That is the Calvinist view, which I learned as a Presbyterian.  

Do you want to see a covenant being made.  Go to Ezekial 16, especially this verse:

Eze 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

Now....did God make a contract with Israel, according to this analogy we are given,  or did He GIVE HIMSELF TO HER?  I think the answer should be fairly obvious.  By the way, in case you don't see it, the language is HIGHLY SEXUAL and INTIMATE.

That is what the covenant of God is.  The Blessed Trinity exists in an eternal covenant of love.

In fact, think on this a while.  My brother is an Arian heretic and we were discussing the Trinity issue one night and I told him the following:

That God is love PROVES the Trinity, for in order for God to be love,  He cannot be alone.  God was love before anything ever existed, but He could only be love if there was an object of His love.  Thus the Godhead exists in the Father,  the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Who give to each other in the perfection of love.

And even these words are FAR INADEQUATE to express the depths of this truth.  

Genesis 15 is about the corporate covenant with Abraham.  It is God extending the terms of the covenant relationship which He first called Abraham into in Genesis 12.  Now God passes through the animals alone to show that Abraham does not have to do anything to make these promises come to pass.  It is all upon God that the Jews will inherit the land which is promised.  In making covenant, there is another consideration -- the animals are an oath/promise.   The one making covenant, by passing through the animals, is saying "If I do not remain faithful to my covenantal promises, may I be made like these animals [judgement].  God is taking an oath.

In the same way, when it came Abraham's turn, circumcision was an oath which said "If I do not remain faithful to the covenant I am entering into now,  may I be CUT OFF as this flesh is cut off."

Covenants are made by both parties with certain oaths/sanctions.  Both God and Abraham entered into the covenant by oath/sanction promises.  We see God's oath/sanction in Gen 15.  We see Abraham's in Genesis 17: 23.

Yes, there are terms to a covenant, but the covenant is still in principle a giving one to another.  The terms just spell out how this is to be done and the consequences if the covenant is broken.

BTW -- that is what baptism does also.  When we are baptized, we are taking an oath which says "If I am unfaithful to my covenant relationship with God,  may I be put to death" [symbolized by going down into the watery tomb of death].  Baptism is far more serious than most people realize or have been taught because we are taking an oath.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[wordsower]

As children of God, we have all the rights and priviledges of children, but we also have responsibilities.  In other words, there are blessings which come by keeping the covenant with God, and there are curses which come by not keeping the covenant. When we break the family rules (sin), we distance ourself from God.  If we commit certain sins, which the Church calls "mortal" sins, we are like the Prodigal Son.  We are no longer in the Father's household and are severed from Him until we repent.

Now, suppose the Prodigal had actually died in the "far country" of sin.  Would he have recieved the inheritance which was still waiting at home for him?  Of course not.  

We have an inheritance as God's children.  That inheritance is eternal life (Matt. 19:29).  In this life, the Holy Spirit is called the "earnest of the inheritance".  (Eph. 1).  He is the downpayment, so to speak, which promises the FULL AMOUNT IF WE REMAIN FAITHFUL.

You see, God uses earthly realities to teach spiritual truths.  The reality of the earthly family is that children who dishonor their families are disinherited (just go to some pagan country and you will see this in action when the pagan child converts to Christianity).  Faithful children receive the inheritance set aside for them.

This is why the idea of "once saved -- always saved" is a myth, and a dangerous one at that.  It teaches people that they can live any way they want and still expect Heaven.  This is what happened in Luther's Germany.  The peasants there, once they understood what Luther was teaching them, turned Germany into a cesspool of immorality.  But why not?  After all, it was Luther himself who said of justification that he could "fornicate 100 times in a day and still be justified before God".

Yeah, right!!!

Bottom line:  Obedient children receive the inheritance which is laid up for them.  Disobedient children do not.  This is how the inheritance of eternal life works also.  If we keep God's familial covenant Law (which is the Law of Love) by doing good, as God does good to all mankind, then we can expect to recieve the inheritance.  If we leave the household of God for sin, and do not repent and come back to obedience, we will be disinherited at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

first of all let me say that I don't subscribe to any Calvanist, Luther or whatever teaching.  I have not studied into these enough to know their full teaching.  I have had so much man made doctrine, opinion and theology that I'm am dead to that.  I pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and trust that He will lead me in all truth.  That being said:  My first thought, which is  mine alone, is that the parable of the prodigal son is a perfect parralel to Israel, having the inheritance first, the younger son left...you know the story, when he came back he was given the robe and signet ring which represent Jesus and his inheritance, without Jesus he could not get the inheritance, so if he had died, no he wouldn't have gotten the inheritance, but if he had had Jesus first, he would have had eternal life.  The older son represents Israel without Jesus, the father tells the son he was his from the beginning but he is not invited to the feast (the marriage supper of the Lamb) because he does not have Jesus.  He will get his inheritance after being provoked to jealousy and having Jesus revealed to Him.

As far as the OSAS issue, the truly saved person will not habitually and intentionally commit sin because the Son has been revealed to them, the Holy Spirit guides them and the blood covers them from their sin, any sin, that they commit in their struggle to walk with Christ and become like him.  In my opinion, a so called christian who tells you he can fornicate 100x a day and be saved is not born again at all.  He deceives himself.  There is not power in us to do good or to remain faithful as proven in the OT, therefore we can not be saved by adhering to laws out of a sense of obligation or remaining faithful.  For this reason Jesus had to come and the Holy Spirit had to stay to help us.

Praise God I AM saved, and I'll be saved tomorrow,hallelujia!

[OrthodoxCatholic]

first of all let me say that I don't subscribe to any Calvanist, Luther or whatever teaching.

[wordsower]

When a person believes that only he is divinely and infallibly led, and that God couldn't possibly lead another person (such as the pope and the Magisterium) -- that is PRIDE.  It is, I know, an ugly thing to say, but it is nonetheless true.  It takes true humility to admit "I don't know everything, but there is a system which does".  The idea that we alone are subject to the leading of the Holy Spirit (which is the constant theme I see in arguements I watch between conflicting Protestant groups) comes not from a spirit of humility, but from the flesh.

I believe that ANY person can be lead by the power of the Holy Spirit if he is willing to be led.  Problem with "religion" is that it puts the thought in the leader of said "religion" that he is right and everyone else is wrong.  I don't have this view.  Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Oneness, Seventh-day Adventists, and many others that claim to be the one and only "true church" have this view, including Catholics.  I attend a Baptist church currently because I was told if I believed in the birth, death and resurrection of our Savior I could be a member, other doctrine should be denominationally established and individually discerned.  Doctrine such as rapture, baptism and other non-salvation issues.  I don't believe the denomination or any denomination is the true church, but that the body of believers who work to share the simple gospel with the world is the true church, those few sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

.  He deals with us now, and in the Judgement, according to what we have become in Christ -- either righteous through good works, or unrighteous through sin.

Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall NOT come into judgement, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24      

[Guest astralis]

I attend a Baptist church currently because I was told if I believed in the birth, death and resurrection of our Savior I could be a member, other doctrine should be denominationally established and individually discerned.  Doctrine such as rapture, baptism and other non-salvation issues.  I don't believe the denomination or any denomination is the true church, but that the body of believers who work to share the simple gospel with the world is the true church, those few sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption.

Wordsower,

 I too, as a former Protestant, used to think there were basics to Christianity - that all I had to do was believe in the basics and the rest would be taken care of.  But, nowhere in Scripture do we find some doctrines listed as essential, others as

[wordsower]

But, no where in scripture or the history of the early Church were there basics because no one was told what the basics were - Jesus never said one doctrine is more important than another, the Apostles didn't either.  Tradition, Scripture, history says nothing about what the basics of Christianity are.  

Oh, but He did!!  They asked which is the great commandement?  Matt. 22:36-40  And He told them to love God with all their hearts and their neighbor's as themselves.  On these two hang all the law and the prophets.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:10

It's really that simple!  Jesus love for us is salvation, his sacrifice is our debt paid, we just gotta accept his gift and love others!  That's really it!

Love is the fulfillment of the law Rom 13:10

That's it!  We :inlove: