SkilletRocksMyFace Posted February 19, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Share Posted February 19, 2005 to re enforce what I've said above Acts 19:1-5 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. [2] And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." [3] And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." [4] And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." [5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The ones before Christ died were baptized not into salvation by Jesus but for repetence sake by John, only AFTER christ died are people baptized into his saving name, by which as Rom 6 declares we share in a death and ressurection like his. So the thief on the cross would have either been literaly baptized in the death of Christ or would not have had it (presumably) in Christ's saving name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted February 19, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 19, 2005 "Baptismal regeneration" is, of course, a ploy of Satan himself. Baptism involves but WATER - and WATER cannot touch & cleanse the soul - whereas one needs BLOOD re the vital necessity of everlasting salvation. It is only thru the BLOOD of the cross that people can enter God's heaven. Yes, true, one who believes in Jesus Christ as personal Saviour will want to obey Him in the WATER of believers' baptism as outward evidence of an inner conversion. First, repentance & acceptance of Christ as your personal Saviour. Then believers' baptism. The latter not in order to BE saved, but because one is ALREADY saved and now wants to obey the Lord in the water of baptism. http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkilletRocksMyFace Posted February 20, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Share Posted February 20, 2005 I think we agreed to that already, the question was "is it nessasry for salvation" To which I think the majourity of us would reply "its not for us to judge" we know what the blbie says about baptism, that all those who believe should be baptized but if they are not does it make them not saved? Well I for one cannot answer the question for certain because I am not the judge of such things, but I personally feel that those who come to a knowledge of the truth are obligated to be baptized in order to share the RESSURECTION like Christ's, Yes blood saves, but our hope is not in the blood and death of Christ, it is in the RESSURECTION of Christ, 1Corth 15 illistrates this very clear that "If we do not belive in the ressurection our preaching is in vain" Without the shedding of blood there is no remmision for sins but without the ressurection from the dead our hope is in vain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Durnan Posted February 21, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2005 Methinks you beat around the bush. BOTH Jesus' substitutionary, all-atoning, once-for-all-time DEATH on Mount Calvary PLUS His glorious, physical, everlasting RESURRECTION are BOTH absolute IMPERATIVES in God's plan of salvation. You cannot have one without the other, nor should you attach greater significance to either when in fact BOTH work mightily TOGETHER in the Lord's tremenmdous work of redemption. Thank You, Lord Jesus, for all of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4! http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkilletRocksMyFace Posted February 22, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Well Arthur, I'd suggest reading my earlier posts. Without the shedding of blood there is no remision for sins and I agreed to that. Please quote me where I said that one was more IMPORTANT than the other. The last line in my last post declared that without blood we are not saved and without ressurection we are not saved either. People tend to focus on just the death of Christ and I was suggesting that people include his Ressurection in the process, I didn't say the ressurection was nescessary, the scritpures did, in fact the ressurection is FUNDIMENTAL to having eternal life, which is not to say it is more important than Christ's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IreneM Posted February 22, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 700 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2005 the thief on the cross was not baptised and the Lord said "today thow shalt be with me in paradise" it was his faith not his baptisim that the Lord looked at my opinion here I have agreed to dissagree with my pastor over this he beleives if not baptised not saved, so quess we will find out in heaven if it really matterd In Christ IreneM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkilletRocksMyFace Posted February 22, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Please see my earlier posts about the thief on the cross. Salvation is a delicate thing. Scritpure is clear that we are "saved by faith" which I don't doubt at all because we cannot earn our salvation by works, however as James tells us, faith without works is dead, an interesting parellel... I'm with Irene and most others here though, while I strongly believe that a believer has the obligation to be baptized for salvation, if for some reason that person can't through no fault of thier own, then who's to say they are not "saved" by thier faith, Only Christ will judge that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IreneM Posted February 22, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 80 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 700 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2005 luke 23 38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Jesus saw his faith did not say "because you were not baptised you are lost " Irene M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkilletRocksMyFace Posted February 23, 2005 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 121 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1983 Share Posted February 23, 2005 Nope, he sure didn't say that to the thief on the cross, but consider these two things: 1. We don't know if he was baptized before that, in John's baptism, we only assume he was not baptized. 2. Even if he was or was not baptized it wouldn't matter. The baptism for salvation only occured after 1. Christ died and 2. Was ressurected from the dead to the right hand of his father. Romans 6 states clearly that the purpose of baptism is to share in the likeness of the ressurection of Christ, thus it would be imposible to have the baptism for salvation in the likeness of Christ's ressureciton if Christ was not yet ressurected (such as the thief on the cross, Christr was obviously still alive and talking to the thief, thus his ressurection did not take place yet) Batpism for salvation takes place only after Christ was ressurected, anything else was for the repentece sake, again, read acts 19. The baptism we practice now and the baptism in question is th one INTO the saving name of Christ Jesus, so this is the baptism I am suggesting is for salvation. However, like we already disucssed. If for some reason you are not baptized and die there is a possiblity of salvation because that decision is based soley on Jesus Christ judging us at the last days. It is not for us motral men and women to know. The point I continue to stress is that we as believers have the obligation to be baptized into the saving name of Jesus Christ because we were commanded to do so by him. Yet again, I will admit, I am not Jesus so I don't know who will be saved, but I do know as Christians we should follow what Christ commanded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hubertdorm Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 You make many good points, Skillet. The thief argument against baptism only proves why baptism is taught falsely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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