Works based salvation and the conditional securist

[Kabowd]

Oh the irony! An accusatory topic about accusations. Gotta love it Can we not just admit there are misunderstandings on both sides? How can this topic produce unity and peace when it begins with one-sided accusations?

I have noticed that people who believe in OSAS/Eternal Security/POS are constantly accusing (falsely so) those who believe in a conditional security of preaching a false works-based salvation.

To be quite fair, I've notice severe misunderstanding and false accusations coming from the anti-OSAS camp as well. Usually, it's the argument that we believe a person can "accept" Christ, proceed to live like hell and still go to heaven. That's the biggest load of crock I've ever heard. I don't know anyone who believes in Eternal Security who believes that at all. Yet, this is what the anti-OSAS supporters often accuse. So lets at least be fair and state there are accusations being slung both ways k?

This comes from a lack of understanding of the conditional security viewpoint. It is not the works that save, it is the faith that saves.

Technically, it's grace that saves. Let's re-cap what Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not of works, so that no one can boast."

Let's look at a few others:

" No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Acts 15:11

According to Scripture, faith is how we access God's grace which saves us (see above) and also:

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. Rom. 5:1-2

In my mind I picture a room (this symbolizing grace and salvation) where Christ is the door, and the key to enter this room is called "faith". Faith alone (or tried in any other door) does not save or lead to salvation. But faith placed in the right Door, gives us access to the grace that saves us. That may not be 100% theologically sound, but that's how I see it in my mind.

And the person can later choose to reject that faith and therefore reject the means by which they were saved. This is not a works-based salvation, but a faith-based salvation. Please make the distinction!

What distinction? This is where your belief gets confusing. I have a few quesions/comments:

1. What do you mean by "reject that faith"? Do you mean by disobeying? If so...you do realize that each time we sin, we are essentially rejecting faith right?

2. Are you asserting that a person must maintain constant obedience in order to maintain their salvation?

3. If obedience/works does not earn salvation (which I hope we agree - it doesn't), how then does it become a source to "maintain" it?

4. How is anything that is considered a repsonsibility of our own not considered a "work"?

I could also say the same for those who believe that baptism is part of the Gospel of Christ. It isn't the act of baptism that saves, it is the faith that goes along with it that saves, thus it is not "adding a work" to the finished work of Christ and preaching a false Gospel.

Huh? Do you want to address this in this topic? We've tried to have this discussion before (unsuccessfully), but if you wish...I'd be glad to discuss it again. I can list dozens and dozens of verses that discuss salvation..none of which mention baptism or even obedience in them. Salvation is a work done by God on our behalf. To assert we must do anything to add to it, achieve it or maintain it is to nullify the work Christ did on the cross.

If you don't really understand the viewpoint that you disagree with, than please don't misrepresent it. If you must discuss it, then please do so with the motivation of attempting to gain a fuller understanding of their viewpoint.

It would be wonderful if you would follow your own advice. Do you wish to further understand our viewpoint? Or only defend your own? I'm trying to ask you questions (regarding faith/works etc) in order to understand your position. Typically, what happens when a person is asked to explain...they disappear or say "well I'm bowing out of this discussion" (or something to that effect). I think it would be awesome if we could actually have a discussion on this subject. Truthfully though, I doubt it's going to turn out any differently than the dozens of others just like this one that have already been closed.

God supplies the grace

We supply the faith

Can you please show me with Scripture where we supply the faith? Because according to what I've read...it's God that supplies both grace and faith:

Here's a few verses that show this:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this [faith] is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not of works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8

"Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb. 12:1-2

"For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. Rom 12:3

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Phl 1:4-6

These verses show us these things:

1. He began the work in us, He'll complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

* What does this verse mean to you?

2. He is not only the Author, but also the Finisher/Perfecter of our faith.

* What does this verse mean to you?

3. Both grace and faith are gifts from God.

* Can you show me Scripture which says we supply our own faith?

To be clear, I believe in Eternal Security. This does NOT mean I believe that a person can live however they want and still have a ticket to heaven. On the contrary, I believe that a person who has been adopted by God has had their identity radically, supernaturally, irreversebly, eternally changed. This change will be manifested by a life that is set apart, fruitful and a heart that desires to please God. Fruit/Works/Obedience...all of these things FOLLOW salvation, they do not preceed it. They are evidence (to the world, not to God) of a heart that has been truly changed.

[Khristeeanos]

DIME,

If we are saved by grace and God supplies the grace, show me the scriptural evidence that shows that God takes away grace from an individual once they make that "life changing decision".

In Him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say that God takes grace away. I said we throw away our faith. If we are saved by faith, and faith is rejectable, then one can cast away their salvation.

[Khristeeanos]

Oh the irony! An accusatory topic about accusations. Gotta love it Can we not just admit there are misunderstandings on both sides? How can this topic produce unity and peace when it begins with one-sided accusations?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe we have had disagreements before because we are only dealing with internet message boards.

I don't know the intent or the tone with which you post.

Maybe I mistake sincerity for sarcasm. It is hard to follow a post when the poster starts out by using sarcasm. Tess, please take the time to tell me if your post intended to portray sarcasm. If it didn't, then please accept my apology and I will respond to your post.

My intention is not to create a thread that is yet another "he said, she said" argument or to have people quote the same 50 verses they feel support their position over and over while the other side doesn't respond.

[John3;16]

DIME Ministries  Today, 09:19 AM Post #1 

I have noticed that people who believe in OSAS/Eternal Security/POS are constantly accusing (falsely so) those who believe in a conditional security of preaching a false works-based salvation.

This comes from a lack of understanding of the conditional security viewpoint. It is not the works that save, it is the faith that saves. The person in question surrenders to God out of faith and allows God to have His way in them to complete said person's purpose while here on earth.

And the person can later choose to reject that faith and therefore reject the means by which they were saved. This is not a works-based salvation, but a faith-based salvation. Please make the distinction!

I could also say the same for those who believe that baptism is part of the Gospel of Christ. It isn't the act of baptism that saves, it is the faith that goes along with it that saves, thus it is not "adding a work" to the finished work of Christ and preaching a false Gospel.

If you are saying that works are a sign of salvation, that argument has scriptural basis, but good works is not the real issue, it is sin that is at the center of the issue, or it should be, it is sin that separates us from God, the only way to atone for sin is through the sacrifice work of Christ, he is "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world", and also "if we ask him to forgive us our sins he is just and faithful to forgive us our sins", works have no bearing on salvation, the other part of your argument, that a person can reject his faith and lose his salvation, what is the obsession with this notion?, are you concerned for someone in particular? why do we get so legalistic about scripture? our sins are what separate us, and Jesus paid for our sins on the cross, and it is faith in him and the work of the cross that saves, if you accept that you are saved, if you are saved and you walk disorderly, God will chastise you, even to the point of death.

[Khristeeanos]

If you are saying that works are a sign of salvation, that argument has scriptural basis, but good works is not the real issue, it is sin that is at the center of the issue, or it should be, it is sin that separates us from God, the only way to atone for sin is through the sacrifice work of Christ, he is "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world", and also "if we ask him to forgive us our sins he is just and faithful to forgive us our sins", works have no bearing on salvation, the other part of your argument, that a person can reject his faith and lose his salvation, what is the obsession with this notion?, are you concerned for someone in particular? why do we get so legalistic about scripture? our sins are what separate us, and Jesus paid for our sins on the cross, and it is faith in him and the work of the cross that saves, if you accept that you are saved, if you are saved and you walk disorderly, God will chastise you, even to the point of death.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no "obsession" here.

To answer the question, YES I am concerned for my fellow professing Christians! Would you not agree that many people who claim to be Christians are not really regenerated?

We should have such a love and compassion for such people that we are compelled to show them that they need to stop playing church and get real about a relationship with Jesus.

The same Jesus who didn't "pay" for sins but made a provision for our sins. The payment theory is simply not true. If Jesus paid for sins, then He paid for the sins of the whole world and unbelief is a sin that was paid for and therefore all go to heaven. See the problem with the payment theory?

[Kabowd]

Maybe I mistake sincerity for sarcasm. It is hard to follow a post when the poster starts out by using sarcasm. Tess, please take the time to tell me if your post intended to portray sarcasm.

Thanks for asking, I was being absolutely sincere but also using sarcasm to show the irony here. It's just ironic to me that you or anyone would start a topic accusing another group of ppl of making accusations. Clearly, there are misunderstandings on both sides. So my perspective is that if you genuinely wanted to promote unity and understand the position of others (as you desire the same courtesy from them), then why not start out asking for further explaination or by expounding on your own position so you could be better understood? That's what I was intending by my statement. Instead you begin by labeling an entire group of ppl and using an accusatory statement of your own:

I have noticed that people who believe in OSAS/Eternal Security/POS are constantly accusing (falsely so) those who believe in a conditional security of preaching a false works-based salvation.

Anyway, now that you hopefully understand the nature of my sacarasm (and the sincerity of my intent), I'll address some of your other posts.

There is no "obsession" here.

To answer the question, YES I am concerned for my fellow professing Christians! Would you not agree that many people who claim to be Christians are not really regenerated?

I have a few questions/comments.

1. While it's true that there many ppl who claim Christianity but are not truly saved, what is your criteria for determining who is and is not "really regenerated"?

2. Are you given the responsibility or authority to judge another person's salvation?

3. What exactly is your concern for your fellow professing Christians?

We should have such a love and compassion for such people that we are compelled to show them that they need to stop playing church and get real about a relationship with Jesus.

I agree with this. I just disagree what we should be telling them that their salvation depends on it

The same Jesus who didn't "pay" for sins but made a provision for our sins. The payment theory is simply not true. If Jesus paid for sins, then He paid for the sins of the whole world and unbelief is a sin that was paid for and therefore all go to heaven. See the problem with the payment theory?

I

[Kabowd]

One more thing, when you get a chance (so we can better understand both sides) could please address my questions in my other post too?

Grazie.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

I gave my life to Christ, am I the only one who did? Its not my property, I couldnt take it from him if I wanted to.

[Khristeeanos]

I have a few questions/comments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SNIPed most of your post. I want to and will respond to all of your comments.

But right now I just can't stay online. I have dialup and must be available to take a phone call that may not come until tomorrow.

Please accept my apology in the delay. I will get to it soon as possible.

In the meantime, I do want to say that for most Christians, the reality of security in Christ is something that I fully believe in. I just also believe that we can reject our faith and that faith is the means of salvation.

God bless you, Tess. I consider you a friend and sibling in Christ.

[Arthur Durnan]

And certainly, if according to the O.S.T.R.T.R.T.R element,(Once Saved, Then Re-Lost, Then Re-saved , Then Re-lost), we can become heinously re-lost, then re-saved, then re-lost, etc, The Apostle Paul in Hebrews 6 assures us we CANNOT be "renewed again unto repentance." Hmm. Very interesting, yes? I much prefer God's Holy Word and its EVERLASTING salvation. In fact, everyone has to believe in O.S.A.S because it's IMPOSSIBLE to be born TWICE. If a person can be lost after being saved, he can never be saved again, which would mean essentially that the very moment the Christian sins after he has been converted, he could never be "re-saved" and he'd be absolutely hopeless. That would be NO Gospel at all!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com