Works based salvation and the conditional securist

[Khristeeanos]

And certainly, if according to the O.S.T.R.T.R.T.R element,(Once Saved, Then Re-Lost, Then Re-saved , Then Re-lost), we can become heinously re-lost, then re-saved, then re-lost, etc, The Apostle Paul in Hebrews 6 assures us we CANNOT be "renewed again unto repentance." Hmm. Very interesting, yes? I much prefer God's Holy Word and its EVERLASTING salvation. In fact, everyone has to believe in O.S.A.S because it's IMPOSSIBLE to be born TWICE.  If a person can be lost after being saved, he can never be saved again, which would mean essentially that the very moment the Christian sins after he has been converted, he could never be "re-saved" and he'd be absolutely hopeless. That would be NO Gospel at all!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AD,

This thread is not supposed to be yet another debate between OSAS and conditional security. It is supposed to be a study in understading the other position better.

[Kabowd]

I have a few questions/comments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SNIPed most of your post. I want to and will respond to all of your comments.

But right now I just can't stay online. I have dialup and must be available to take a phone call that may not come until tomorrow.

Please accept my apology in the delay. I will get to it soon as possible.

In the meantime, I do want to say that for most Christians, the reality of security in Christ is something that I fully believe in. I just also believe that we can reject our faith and that faith is the means of salvation.

God bless you, Tess. I consider you a friend and sibling in Christ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate the reply Jake (your name is Jake right? Is it okay if I call you that?). I look forward to your post and hope we can understand eachother better as we discuss this topic. Thanks!

[Khristeeanos]

I appreciate the reply Jake (your name is Jake right? Is it okay if I call you that?). I look forward to your post and hope we can understand eachother better as we discuss this topic. Thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, my name is Jake and of course you can call me that.

[Khristeeanos]

To be quite fair, I've notice severe misunderstanding and false accusations coming from the anti-OSAS camp as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I will give you that as well. You are correct.

Usually, it's the argument that we believe a person can "accept" Christ, proceed to live like hell and still go to heaven.

To be honest, there are some OSAS teachers that do teach that. Charles Stanley comes to mind.

That's the biggest load of crock I've ever heard. I don't know anyone who believes in Eternal Security who believes that at all.

I have family members who believe that their children are saved and going to heaven because of OSAS. One is a drunk and never has a thought about God or anything. Another was addicted to cocane and marijuana.

Yet, this is what the anti-OSAS supporters often accuse.

Until some popular OSAS teachers state otherwise, I must continue to say that there are some who use OSAS as a license to sin.

Like me. I used to. I believed in OSAS and was addicted to pornography and self-defilement and had a strong tongue.

So lets at least be fair and state there are accusations being slung both ways k?

Already agreed.

This comes from a lack of understanding of the conditional security viewpoint. It is not the works that save, it is the faith that saves.

Technically, it's grace that saves. Let's re-cap what Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not of works, so that no one can boast."

Let's look at a few others:

" No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Acts 15:11

According to Scripture, faith is how we access God's grace which saves us (see above) and also:

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. Rom. 5:1-2

[Khristeeanos]

I have a few questions/comments.

1. While it's true that there many ppl who claim Christianity but are not truly saved, what is your criteria for determining who is and is not "really regenerated"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no criteria. I am not God. I can judge no one's salvation sans my own.

2. Are you given the responsibility or authority to judge another person's salvation?

No, but we are given the responsibility to reach out to non-Christians and preach the Good News to them.

3. What exactly is your concern for your fellow professing Christians?

There was a person who posted here who was a strong believer in OSAS. This person and I got into more than a few debates over the issue. After a while, this person was convicted by God that they weren't regenerated and that they needed salvation. They changed their stance concerning OSAS. They no longer believed in OSAS and decided to obey the Gospel and then send me a PM that thanked me (and someone else) for our discussions on the issue.

That is my concern. That there are people who really truely believe that they are Christians and yet aren't. It is the responsibility of all Christians to preach the Gospel and contend for the faith.

We should have such a love and compassion for such people that we are compelled to show them that they need to stop playing church and get real about a relationship with Jesus.

I agree with this. I just disagree what we should be telling them that their salvation depends on it

My point is that there are people who are a member of a church and are there each week and are doing ministry and yet may not be a Christian. Joining a church does not make one a Christian. Neither does growing up in a church.

The same Jesus who didn't "pay" for sins but made a provision for our sins. The payment theory is simply not true. If Jesus paid for sins, then He paid for the sins of the whole world and unbelief is a sin that was paid for and therefore all go to heaven. See the problem with the payment theory?

I

[Guest wilburnh]

Concerning Arthur Durnan's Hebrews 6 post

The tense of verse 6 is one that as long as they are living in the sin, they are crucifying Christ to themselves and so they can not be brought back. However, once they stop living in sin, the tense no longer applies to them, so at that time they can be brought back. I think the tense is something imperfect. I know that's a little vague, easily found with research.

Calvin

[Kabowd]

I have family members who believe that their children are saved and going to heaven because of OSAS. One is a drunk and never has a thought about God or anything. Another was addicted to cocane and marijuana.

Until some popular OSAS teachers state otherwise, I must continue to say that there are some who use OSAS as a license to sin.

Like me. I used to. I believed in OSAS and was addicted to pornography and self-defilement and had a strong tongue.

So if a person has a stronghold, or struggles with a particular sin...they must not be saved? At what point during your porn addiction did you lose your salvation? In the beginning? The middle? How does a person know whether or not they are saved or not?

I see salvation being a diamond and there are many facets of salvation.

Could you please explain those facets?

1. What do you mean by "reject that faith"? Do you mean by disobeying? If so...you do realize that each time we sin, we are essentially rejecting faith right?

Reject the faith is a Biblical position. The apostle Paul exhorted Timothy to continue in the faith because some have "shipwrecked their faith." Paul had been in a shipwreck and knew that the ship was lost.

You didn't explain what you mean by "reject the faith" though. Is it disobedience? Sin? And could you please give me the scriptural references to the passages you are referring to here?

2. Are you asserting that a person must maintain constant obedience in order to maintain their salvation?

No. I am not at all saying that. What I mean is that a true saving faith will have obedience along with it. It is not the obedience that saves, it is the faith that saved.

This is very confusing to me. Were you saved or lost when you were struggling with porn? At what point were you saved/lost? I agree that obedience doesn't save...and I obviously agree that obedience is evidence of a life that has been changed. What I do not understand is this: we are human and still live in this skin, we will struggle, we will fall, we WILL sin. Does this mean we aren't truly saved or what?

It really is all over the Bible when I read it. Maybe it is one of those issues that although we read the same verses, we come to the opposite conclusions.

Perhaps. Because even though I see many references to "your faith" and "little faith" etc...none of them ever imply that faith originates from ourselves. Even references about great faith or growing faith always points back to this being a result of God. For instance Romans 10:17:

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

[Kabowd]

1. He began the work in us, He'll complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

* What does this verse mean to you?

I believe that this verse was written to a single congregation because of their kind gift to Paul. They were showing a great love to Paul and for that he was thankful. I believe the context of the passage would be for that church only. The principal applies to others who act out of love.

How is it you determine what is applicable to us, and what was just applicable to a certain congregation? Why is it included in Scripture, if it wasn't meant for our instruction also? Is the rest of Philippians meant only for the church at Philippi also?

2. He is not only the Author, but also the Finisher/Perfecter of our faith.

* What does this verse mean to you?

I will have to study this more.

I eagerly await your reply to this. This is one of the key points to understanding the position of those who believe in Eternal Security.

3. Both grace and faith are gifts from God.

* Can you show me Scripture which says we supply our own faith?

It goes back to the answer I gave just above. If God supplies the faith, then all people of all time will be saved because God loves the whole world and wants to be saved and is the Savior of all men.

Scripture? And the converse would be...if we supply our own faith...what do we need with God? All the scriptures I've read and offered clearly indicate that God alone is the giver of faith and grace. Please show me where it says otherwise.

My point is that there are people who are a member of a church and are there each week and are doing ministry and yet may not be a Christian. Joining a church does not make one a Christian. Neither does growing up in a church.

I never said it did. But there are also people who don't believe salvation is secure who are doing those things to "maintain" it. Do you see how your view could have the opposite effect (hence the reference to it being works-based)?

I don't believe that there is a problem here. Ransom, payment, born-again and many other terms are just that - terms. I don't believe that they are all meant to be taken literally. I don't see a direct payment talked about anywhere in the Bible.

If it was a direct and literal payment, then who was the payment given to?

Was it Satan? (God doesn't owe Satan anything)

Was it God? (God paying Himself?)

I just see too many problems with a payment theory.

That's just it...it's not a theory, Jake. It's Scripture. And yes I believe the atonement of Christ was payment to God, to satsify the need for the offering. Why is that a problem?

What has been paid and to whom? I believe that it was the Moasic law was finished and done away with forever. We now had the perfect atoning sacrifice that was a substitution for us

Can you respond to the Scriptures I provided already regarding atonement, wages of sin, ransom, Hosea/Gomer etc.?

[Khristeeanos]

3. Both grace and faith are gifts from God.

* Can you show me Scripture which says we supply our own faith?

It goes back to the answer I gave just above. If God supplies the faith, then all people of all time will be saved because God loves the whole world and wants to be saved and is the Savior of all men.

Scripture? And the converse would be...if we supply our own faith...what do we need with God? All the scriptures I've read and offered clearly indicate that God alone is the giver of faith and grace. Please show me where it says otherwise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tess, I don't have time to get to all of your points tonight. But I do want to touch on this.

Please explain to me this.

If God supplies the faith, then how will any perish? God wants every person to be saved, right?

[Kabowd]

3. Both grace and faith are gifts from God.

* Can you show me Scripture which says we supply our own faith?

It goes back to the answer I gave just above. If God supplies the faith, then all people of all time will be saved because God loves the whole world and wants to be saved and is the Savior of all men.

Scripture? And the converse would be...if we supply our own faith...what do we need with God? All the scriptures I've read and offered clearly indicate that God alone is the giver of faith and grace. Please show me where it says otherwise.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tess, I don't have time to get to all of your points tonight. But I do want to touch on this.

Please explain to me this.

If God supplies the faith, then how will any perish? God wants every person to be saved, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean "if God supplies the faith?"? I've yet to see Scripture which states that He doesn't, or that we do

And..no offense, but could you address some of my other posts before asking me more questions? I doubt we'll get very far if we just keep asking new questions.