Works based salvation and the conditional securist

[John3;16]

could someone from the non-eternal security camp answer this question? in the verses that follow the Apostle John states that if we (which is including himself) say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and in verse 1:9 if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, how then do you reconcile not being involved in any sins at all, after you are saved with these verses?

In verse 2:1 the Apostle is speaking to believers, as he calls them his little children, and gives assurance that if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins, if those who have recieved him as Lord and Savour are without sin, then why would he say that if any man sin, we have an advacate with the Father? these verses are clearly showing that we can and will comit sins after we are saved, and that he is just and able to forgive us our sins, if we confess them.

1 John|1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John|1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John|1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us

[Scylth]

could someone from the non-eternal security camp answer this question? in the verses that follow the Apostle John states that if we (which is including himself) say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and in verse 1:9 if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, how then do you reconcile not being involved in any sins at all, after you are saved

Edited February 27, 2005 by Scylth

[Khristeeanos]

3. Both grace and faith are gifts from God.

* Can you show me Scripture which says we supply our own faith?

It goes back to the answer I gave just above. If God supplies the faith, then all people of all time will be saved because God loves the whole world and wants to be saved and is the Savior of all men.

Scripture? And the converse would be...if we supply our own faith...what do we need with God? All the scriptures I've read and offered clearly indicate that God alone is the giver of faith and grace. Please show me where it says otherwise.

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Tess, I don't have time to get to all of your points tonight. But I do want to touch on this.

Please explain to me this.

If God supplies the faith, then how will any perish? God wants every person to be saved, right?

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What do you mean "if God supplies the faith?"? I've yet to see Scripture which states that He doesn't, or that we do

And..no offense, but could you address some of my other posts before asking me more questions? I doubt we'll get very far if we just keep asking new questions.

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Tess, maybe I am confused a bit. What I would like to know is do you believe in the strict 5-point Calvinistic "TUILP" doctrine of predetermined salvation and limited atonement.

If you do that, it will help me to understand a bit more and I will be able to answer your questions.

I may be able to get to all of your posts tonight.

[John3;16]

Scylth

That said, I don't think enduring to the end means that we will never sin. I don't think that if we have been born again, and then we sin, that we will be disqualified from inheriting eternal life. I don't think anyone in the "non-eternal security" camp believes that they will never commit a sin, or if they do commit a sin after they are "saved" that they will then be "non-saved." I would say that those verses you point to in John are pretty much conclusive and definitive regarding that possibility.

AMEN!

This entire post has cast light on the need for believers to be careful of the gift that has been given to each one us, and be aware of those who are looking on, so as not to cause new Christians to stumble, and those who are seeking the truth, that they may look to us, for the answer, There is a parable that Jesus gave, that is often referred to as the parable of the parodical son,( in Luke 15:11 through 15:32) which I believe gives us a picture of God's heart, if we realize our condition, and return to him in humility, and ask for forgiveness, I believe he will receive us, remember he ran to the lost son as he was returning, God has compassion on us, he is long suffering, and patient, toward those that belong to him, and if we walk away from him, you just need to read about Jonas, to see he can bring you back.

Titus|3:8

[Khristeeanos]

Well Tess, I got to part of your posts, will have to do the rest later, my lovely bride is waiting for me. I have to fix the quotes again. Maybe if I have too many it doesn't recognize them or something.

My use of green is quotes directly from your post, with my comments quoted from your post in italacs (sp?)

I have family members who believe that their children are saved and going to heaven because of OSAS. One is a drunk and never has a thought about God or anything. Another was addicted to cocane and marijuana.

Until some popular OSAS teachers state otherwise, I must continue to say that there are some who use OSAS as a license to sin.

Like me. I used to. I believed in OSAS and was addicted to pornography and self-defilement and had a strong tongue.

So if a person has a stronghold, or struggles with a particular sin...they must not be saved? At what point during your porn addiction did you lose your salvation? In the beginning? The middle? How does a person know whether or not they are saved or not?

I appreciate your questions, but they are misleading questions. They are questions to which there is no real solid answer. Let's talk about the Gospel.

The reason Jesus came was to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21). Not to save us "while still in our sins" but to save us "from" our sins.

The idea of a "sinning Christian" is totally contrary to the teachings of the Bible and to a holy God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7, 8

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Many more Scriptures could be cited, but I think this will suffice for now. If you would like others, please let me know.

I see salvation being a diamond and there are many facets of salvation.

Could you please explain those facets?

The Bible clearly defines what a saving faith is and what salvation is.

If you come across a passage that says, "You must do this to be saved" or "You must do that to be saved" then that is part of a Biblically-defined saving faith. It is one of those "facets" of salvation.

Take faith for example. You and I could probably quote a dozen Scriptures from memory that says faith is a requirement for salvation. Let me quote the most quoted verses.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Romans 4:2-3

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about

[Khristeeanos]

1. He began the work in us, He'll complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

* What does this verse mean to you?

I believe that this verse was written to a single congregation because of their kind gift to Paul. They were showing a great love to Paul and for that he was thankful. I believe the context of the passage would be for that church only. The principal applies to others who act out of love.

How is it you determine what is applicable to us, and what was just applicable to a certain congregation? Why is it included in Scripture, if it wasn't meant for our instruction also? Is the rest of Philippians meant only for the church at Philippi also?

I have never understood how that passage means unconditional security even if we abandon our faith and commit hideous acts of immorality. It is reading too much into the text, IMO.

Besides, there are verses in the same book that say that Paul wasn't guarenteed future enterance into heaven because of his past faith.

Philippians 3: 10-12

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

2. He is not only the Author, but also the Finisher/Perfecter of our faith.

* What does this verse mean to you?

I will have to study this more.

I eagerly await your reply to this. This is one of the key points to understanding the position of those who believe in Eternal Security.

I feel like I addressed this in my last post, I simply cannot escape the conclusion that all will be saved if God is supplying the faith.

3. Both grace and faith are gifts from God.

* Can you show me Scripture which says we supply our own faith?

It goes back to the answer I gave just above. If God supplies the faith, then all people of all time will be saved because God loves the whole world and wants to be saved and is the Savior of all men.

Scripture? And the converse would be...if we supply our own faith...what do we need with God? All the scriptures I've read and offered clearly indicate that God alone is the giver of faith and grace. Please show me where it says otherwise.

Um, what about God's grace? Our faith is worthless without God's grace, right? I have shown that God wants to save all, yet not all will be saved, so there must be human responsibility. Otherwise, we will have universal reconciliation.

My point is that there are people who are a member of a church and are there each week and are doing ministry and yet may not be a Christian. Joining a church does not make one a Christian. Neither does growing up in a church.

I never said it did. But there are also people who don't believe salvation is secure who are doing those things to "maintain" it. Do you see how your view could have the opposite effect (hence the reference to it being works-based)?

If someone has a faulty understanding of a conditional security based upon works then yes. I neither preach or understand this works-based salvation. It is a grace-based salvation initiated by our faith.

I don't believe that there is a problem here. Ransom, payment, born-again and many other terms are just that - terms. I don't believe that they are all meant to be taken literally. I don't see a direct payment talked about anywhere in the Bible.

If it was a direct and literal payment, then who was the payment given to?

Was it Satan? (God doesn't owe Satan anything)

Was it God? (God paying Himself?)

I just see too many problems with a payment theory.

That's just it...it's not a theory, Jake. It's Scripture. And yes I believe the atonement of Christ was payment to God, to satsify the need for the offering. Why is that a problem?

So God needed to pay himself for our sins? That doesn't make sense to me at all.

What has been paid and to whom? I believe that it was the Moasic law was finished and done away with forever. We now had the perfect atoning sacrifice that was a substitution for us

Can you respond to the Scriptures I provided already regarding atonement, wages of sin, ransom, Hosea/Gomer etc.?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death..." Hosea 13:14a

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all men.." I Tim. 2:5-6

I will have to study this more. I still don't see how a literal payment was made. I already said that unbelief is a sin (Revelation 21:8) and that if a literal payment was made for all sins, then unbelief is a sin that was paid for and therefore unbelief can't keep anybody out of heaven, hense universal reconciliation again.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

I'm so glad my life is not my own.

[John3;16]

"Besides, there are verses in the same book that say that Paul wasn't guarenteed future enterance into heaven because of his past faith."

In fact he was contrasting, his past faith, in/under the law, with his presant faith, in Jesus

Philippians|3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The Apostle Paul tells us how we recieve righteousness, through faith, in verse 3:10, Paul is speaking of his conforming to the likeness of Christ, which is what the Father does in each of our lives, this is not speaking about achieving salvation, after salvation we are conformed into the image of His Son, at least that is God's plan for our lives. Look at Romans 6:3-6:10, are old man is crucified with him, that we should no longer serve sin, and that we should walk in newness of life, and as an example the Apostle Paul tells us that, "he that is dead is free from sin", this is not speaking as a physical death, but that we are positionally dead, and that we are free from death (eternal) and sin, we are still in the flesh, and it is the flesh that sins, and wars against the Spirit which dwells with us. Going through persecution and being martyred would give us understanding of his sufferings, but it is not how we are saved. many have been martyred who follow false religions, or no religion. The day Paul became perfect was when he was in the presence of Christ.

Philippians|3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

"Philippians 3: 10-12 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me."

Romans|6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized

into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans|6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans|6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also

[Lionroot]

Greetings,

Its safe to say that those who claim to know him, yet walk in darkness are in a bad place whether you accept OSAS, Or "Conditional Security". Wether some one fell from grace or was never saved becomes immaterial, and they need to get right with God. Amen?

While I disagree with the OSAS doctrine, I do not think anyone will be barred from Heaven for believing it. However I think, and I know that it has made some complacent to live worldly lives, walking in darkness. I have had people look me right in the face and tell me that, I was saved sometime ago, since then I've lived a life that embraces some type(s) of sin, but it does not matter because OSAS.

This is a very dangerous stance to take, and after many circular arguments with OSAS adherents, I recognize that it is not a proper application of the doctrine. I think however it becomes incumbent upon those who teach and promote OSAS to reach out to those walking in darkness, and get them "truly saved". Short of that it becomes a tool for the enemy to lead many to their eternal destruction.

God Bless,

Robert

To be clear, I believe in Eternal Security. This does NOT mean I believe that a person can live however they want and still have a ticket to heaven. On the contrary, I believe that a person who has been adopted by God has had their identity radically, supernaturally, irreversebly, eternally changed. This change will be manifested by a life that is set apart, fruitful and a heart that desires to please God. Fruit/Works/Obedience...all of these things FOLLOW salvation, they do not preceed it. They are evidence (to the world, not to God) of a heart that has been truly changed.

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