ZacharyB Posted June 24, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 410 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 175 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) On 6/22/2016 at 11:43 AM, shiloh357 said: ... having the Holy Spirit indwelling us IS the guarantee of eternal life. (Eph. 1:13-14) Ephesians was written ONLY ONLY ONLY to the saints in Ephesus who were "faithful" (1:1). Faithful saints are the ones who are walking in the Spirit and living righteously. Ephesians was NOT written to every American Tom, Dick, and Harry who happen to think they are in a state of salvation. Salvation is a life-long process where, for example, saving faith must endure until the end of life. About 10 NT passages teach this fact. So, no OSAS. Try reconciling OSAS with these end-time dire warnings: 1) do not trash your faith during the great tribulation 2) do not take the mark of the beast Failing either of these tests of one's faith will result in the loss of eternal life, if indeed a person ever had it whilst heading into 1) and 2). Edited June 24, 2016 by ZacharyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 49 minutes ago, ZacharyB said: Ephesians was written ONLY ONLY ONLY to the saints in Ephesus who were "faithful" (1:1). Faithful saints are the ones who are walking in the Spirit and living righteously. All true Christians will always be faithful. There is no such thing as an unfaithful saints. No one who is truly born again, will ever lose salvation. But it's not because they are faithful. It is because God is faithful. Eternal Security rests on the faithfulness of God, not on the faithfulness of man. It is not our effort, our faithfulness that secures salvation; if it were, then WE become our own saviors. Salvation then becomes a work of man, and not a work of God. Quote Ephesians was NOT written to every American Tom, Dick, and Harry who happen to think they are in a state of salvation. I agree, but it IS a promise to all who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord that they are kept, sealed and guaranteed salvation. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of salvation for all who are saved. There is no salvation for those who have nothing but religion, in the first place. If all a person had was religion and they descend into a life of sin, they are not losing anything. They never had salvation to begin with. Quote Salvation is a life-long process where, for example, saving faith must endure until the end of life. About 10 NT passages teach this fact. So, no OSAS. Salvation occurs in three phases. First of all, we are justified by faith on the basis of Jesus' finished work on the cross. That is a one time event. Second, the "process" as you call it, is sanctification. Sanctification is the process whereby we are conformed more and more into the image of Christ. It is the process by which old habits and mindsets and old fleshly desires are removed as we grow spiritually into Christ. Justification does not depend on sanctification. Justification is not conditional upon whether you commit a sin or not. Justification, being made right with God through Christ, depends solely upon what Jesus did on the cross and nothing else. When you are justified is when you are transformed and made into a new creation in Christ (II Cor. 5:17). That is where eternal salvation occurs and that is God's work and God's work alone. Even our sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit within us. It is not us operating under our own strength trying to be like Jesus. Thirdly is glorification. That is when sin will be eradicated and fullness of all salvation means will be realized by us. That's when we will receive the full measure of our inheritance including our new, sinless bodies. Please provide the 10 NT passages that say we must endure until the end of life to be saved. I would like to see which ones you have in mind. Quote Try reconciling OSAS with these end-time dire warnings: 1) do not trash your faith during the great tribulation 2) do not take the mark of the beast Failing either of these tests of one's faith will result in the loss of eternal life, if indeed a person ever had it whilst heading into 1) and 2). I won't be in the Great Tribulation in the first place. I will be off of this earth, via the rapture or physical death before the Great Tribulation. As for the mark of the beast, no believers will be taking the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 On 22/06/2016 at 0:15 AM, post said: i know better than to be afraid that God will not be faithful to do in me what i have trusted in Him to do. i know better than to accuse Him of not being sincere when He talks about having chosen me, purchased and purposed me. that's all -- i could probably find hundreds of verses to illustrate this, but there do happen to be a couple dozen of them that make very strong statements related to this -- however even if there were only a handful, they can't be brushed aside as if they aren't there, and since there are in fact many - i think i ought to know better than to second-guess them all. but like i said early in the thread ((not sure if you've read all of it)) -- the common accusation against having a confident faith is that it 'leads believers to go on living however they choose in all kinds of sin' -- and this is ignorant, because the exact same salvation from damnation that i am sure of is the same salvation from my old nature, that is a salvation unto a righteous life and all good works prepared for me. i don't know how i should 'know better' than that - but i think Christians should 'know better' than that, if they have truly been redeemed. Because it seems millions of people 'were christians ' and then are no longer . This means, that the instant christian is mostly a myth . And, we can allow or not a have God transform us . It is a process mainly, and while a few might have instant transformation which lasts , it is mainly a process . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 On 23/06/2016 at 3:20 AM, post said: i would be pretty excited if you could teach me how Romans 9 is actually describing mankind's free will. why do so many people act like "free will" is the ultimate virtue and that all doctrine must be held up to whether or not it includes "free will" or not? but is God waiting around like your servant to see if you will choose Him or won't? is He ever "surprised" by what you decide to do? do you think He is just pacing back and forth in the heavens wondering if you will "elect yourself" or not? worried that you might not, because then He'll sure look silly for planning so many things for your life? but 'oh well' Zach chose this instead of that. too bad God. guess it's back to the drawing board for the Almighty. why does that idea seem to be the 'litmus test' for sound doctrine, and not God's sovereignty ?? humans are bizarre in their thinking. but they all think they think straight. so weird! Do you include yourself in this statement ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 4 hours ago, ZacharyB said: Ephesians was written ONLY ONLY ONLY to the saints in Ephesus who were "faithful" (1:1). Faithful saints are the ones who are walking in the Spirit and living righteously. Ephesians was NOT written to every American Tom, Dick, and Harry who happen to think they are in a state of salvation. Salvation is a life-long process where, for example, saving faith must endure until the end of life. About 10 NT passages teach this fact. So, no OSAS. Try reconciling OSAS with these end-time dire warnings: 1) do not trash your faith during the great tribulation 2) do not take the mark of the beast Failing either of these tests of one's faith will result in the loss of eternal life, if indeed a person ever had it whilst heading into 1) and 2). Well said Zachary . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, Thallasa said: Because it seems millions of people 'were christians ' and then are no longer . This means, that the instant christian is mostly a myth . And, we can allow or not a have God transform us . It is a process mainly, and while a few might have instant transformation which lasts , it is mainly a process . No, what it means is that they were never Christians to start with. True Christians don't live in sin and they don't fall back. You are confusing religion with biblical Christianity, which is a relationship with God, first and foremost. Being a Christian is an instant transformation AND a process of transforming sanctification. It is not a process where we don't really know if we are saved until we die. And it is a work of God. No one can save themselves Eternal life for the Christian begins today and we can know if we are saved, right now. John 5:11-13, John 5:24, Eph. 1:13-14 and Romans 8:16-17 all tell me that I can know right now that I am saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 On 23/06/2016 at 5:25 PM, ZacharyB said: I'm sorry, the Lord doesn't give a fig about what you want (re: the points of our discussion). Let's stick to the Scriptures about God's requirements. Oh, I forgot, we shouldn't care about His requirements, as if there were none! Well said Zachary . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
post Posted June 24, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,045 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/09/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1976 Share Posted June 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Thallasa said: Do you include yourself in this statement ? inasmuch as i am bizarre in my human ways of thinking, and the human nature in me thinks it thinks straight, yes, for sure. i am bizarre, and i have often found that i *think* i think flawlessly and then find out later that i was quite far from it. but i find in myself a new nature: a life that is not my own, and a mind that is not my own, but is Christ - and this mind recognizes the futility of the human ways of thinking and the weirdness of it all; the irony and the weaknesses and the fallacies; the vanity and non-sequiturs. do i include myself in those who consider 'human free will' to be an axiomatic requirement of any sound theology? no. i really don't see it in the scripture. what i see is very clearly the sovereignty of God and His divine election and predestination - things that are mentioned verbatim in the Book in many places, many times. and while i see things that by implication and interpretation indicate free agency, the phrase "free will" is not found in the scripture at all as far as i know, and i by no means look at the human condition & the relationship between God and man and think that no understanding of such things can possibly be correct if it does not include man's ability to decide for himself whether God should be allowed to convert him or not, or man's ultimate ability to overthrow God's sovereign plan for a man. if you would force me to make a statement anything like that, i would say that no theology in which God is not ultimately sovereign, even to the exclusion of any will or effort of mankind, can be true. God is God, and man is man. if man trumps God, then God is no longer God; we do not overturn His will, and i reject the sentimental notion ((also not found in scripture - though universally prevalent in the mind of this age & world)) that 'love is impossible' if a being doesn't have a free choice to hate instead. if anyone has free will, God does -- and His free will far outweighs the free will of any other creature. . . what i think is far more likely is that our simple, futile human thinking does not comprehend 'free will / predestination' hardly at all, though in our vanity we often claim to. perhaps it is as light shows properties of a particle & a wave, depending on how you set up the experiment, whatever the truth of this is can show properties that are 'agency-like' or 'predetermined-like' depending on how you try to measure them. & think that man's vanity also makes 'free will' far more appealing than any perceived absence of it, because if we can point at ourselves as having been 'smart enough' to 'choose God' then we can pat ourselves on the back and give ourselves glory: we can boast of it. but if it is instead God who chooses us ((as the scriptures actually say)) then what can we boast of? only one thing: that He has revealed to us some of Himself, and that we have known His mercy. nothing more. . . & of boasting, what does the scripture say? "it is excluded." maybe a better litmus test for right theology is if it is an understanding by which we can be made grateful to God, or if it is an understanding by which God ought to be grateful to us. "boasting is excluded" -- so if my comprehension of how God & man relate to each other allows me to boast, it is probably flawed. does that sit well with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted June 25, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 410 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 175 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, shiloh357 said: I won't be in the Great Tribulation in the first place. I will be off of this earth, via the rapture or physical death before the Great Tribulation. As for the mark of the beast, no believers will be taking the mark. This is the biggest bunch of nonsense you have written. You will NOT be raptured out of big-time trouble during the great tribulation. Many weak believers will fail to endure through it. And many weak believers will take the mark of the beast. E.G. many will take it instead of watching their families starve to death. (BTW, famine is coming soon to America, and so is pressure to take the mark.) All of this is due to the terribly weak and dysfunctional churches. However, overcoming believers will be led successfully by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14, etc.). Sorry that I haven't had time to post all of the NT verses I have referenced. T'would be easier to send you a NT. I could copy & post a thread disproving the pre-trib rapture doctrine. (Nope! ... It's already in Eschatology ... No understanding that it's a salvation issue.) Edited June 25, 2016 by ZacharyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZacharyB Posted June 25, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 410 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 175 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/20/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, shiloh357 said: No, what it means is that they were never Christians to start with. True Christians don't live in sin and they don't fall back. You are confusing religion with biblical Christianity, which is a relationship with God, first and foremost. Being a Christian is an instant transformation AND a process of transforming sanctification. It is not a process where we don't really know if we are saved until we die. And it is a work of God. No one can save themselves Eternal life for the Christian begins today and we can know if we are saved, right now. John 5:11-13, John 5:24, Eph. 1:13-14 and Romans 8:16-17 all tell me that I can know right now that I am saved. Yes, I mostly agree with you here. I am mostly concerned with pointing out God's warnings to so-called "believers" who think they are saved and going to heaven ... whilst they are wallowing in their many sins! But, some believers don't understand this ... they are narrow-minded. They see themselves as righteous and saved, but don't comprehend or care about the plight of other people. Edited June 25, 2016 by ZacharyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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