QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/22/2016 at 4:04 PM, WailingWall said:

1 THES. 4 [13] [18] & ZEPH. 1 [14] [17] 

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 –  voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event.

No, they are not talking of the same event: the Rapture.
Paul does, Zephaniah does not; the Jews do not participate in the Rapture - they "miss" Jesus - whom they do not yet worship.

In Thessalonians, Jesus comes on the clouds.
In Zephaniah, and other Old Testament descriptions of the Day of the Lord: the clouds are covering the sun (Ezekiel 32:7)

In Thessalonians, Jesus sounds the Last Trumpet.
In Zephaniah, and other Old Testament descriptions of the Day of the Lord: all kinds of trumpets are sounding: alarm trumpets, attack trumpets, etc...

In Thessalonians, the wicked grieve.
In Zephaniah, the dying warrior cries bitterly.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/22/2016 at 4:04 PM, WailingWall said:

Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

Yes they do, but not of the same event.

There is more than one event which happens on the Day of the Lord, which has its opposing and contrasting sides.
It is a unique Day as Zechariah says...

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/22/2016 at 4:04 PM, WailingWall said:

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

Again, that is in error: you mean after the one 'seven'.

The Bible puts the Day of the Lord after the Great Tribulation.

They are not one and the same.

The Great Tribulation is shortened.  The one 'seven' runs its full second half.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 11/23/2016 at 11:27 AM, WailingWall said:

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Doesnt fit your rapture story. Not sure how your story goes but most all Rapturist believe they will be raptured and 7 yrs later, Christ returns and burns up the wicked. Scripture above says quite the opposite.

Not when you read your antiquated translation which confuses two totally separate Greek verbs!

The tares are collected: syllego.
The wheat is gathered: sunago.

syllego, which is used of the tares, while generally translated as ‘gather’ means, according to Thayer in his lexicon, in this instance specifically, to collect in order to carry off.

An outline of sunago in the Bible as presented by the Blue Letter Bible:

1) to gather together, to gather

a) to draw together, collect

1) of fishes
2) of a net in which they are caught

2) to bring together, assemble, collect

a) to join together, join in one (those previously separated)
b) to gather together by convoking
c) to be gathered i.e. come together, gather, meet

3) to lead with one's self

a) into one's home, i.e. to receive hospitably, to entertain

So the action is different between the two and the Rapture fits neatly enough.
The tares are collected in the field - to be burned (future)
We are gathered up in the Rapture to the barn of Heaven - where it's safe.

We receive our inheritance in Heaven - where our treasures are.

[WailingWall]

On 11/28/2016 at 11:01 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

No, be serious.  That is an idiom of speech in both contexts.  It means 'from all over'.

That is not a serious linkage, but only the barest of coincidence in wording.  
I'd call it grasping at straws...

I call it letting scripture interpret scripture

[Marcus O'Reillius]

When you compare this:
Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 

With this:
Gen 37:9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10 He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"

THEN you are interpreting Scripture with Scripture.
Merely linking subjects because of an idiom of speech is not scholarly exegesis, but more like the child-play.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Post #30,000.

On 11/22/2016 at 3:48 PM, WailingWall said:

Its all about the 4 winds

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS!  The four winds that are prophesied will blow only once. Zeke 37 also speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel

MATT.24 [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.

In Ezekiel 37, life is coming into "dry" bones - this has both literal and figurative meaning when you consider "water" as equating to "Spirit" and the lack of it meaning the absence of Spirit, as well as the fact that these "bones" have been "dead" long enough to have had their marrow dry out - which is an important part because of the generation of blood - which is the "life" force of man.

The breath is from all over - the compass points: North, East, South, and West.
Ezekiel is the vessel for God's Power here - His Power goes through Ezekiel whom He calls upon to "do the work".

In Matthew 24:31 - Jesus is the actor, coming on the clouds.
He is gathering the Elect, who "remain and are still alive" after the Great Tribulation.

These souls are "Living" - that is: they are Spiritually "alive" having the Spirit of God within them as believers.
Furthermore - as Paul says in 1Co 15: they are a special lot because they will never experience death, but "exchange" their mortal bodies for immortal ones.

The "four winds" - which is not a prophecy per se, but rather an idiom of speech - means from all over - from everything under the sky, or "one end of heaven to the other."

So are these two prophecies describing the same event?
No, there are important differences between them.

1. In a valley.
2. From all over.

1. dry bones
2. "Living" souls - (He is the God of the Living, not the Dead as Jesus said...)

1. Earthbound.
2. From the clouds.

1. Re-animating flesh and blood.
2. Exchanging flesh and blood for immortal and imperishable.

The aspect of the four winds also differs:
1. Source for the "breath"
2. Describing the breadth of the gathering.

So no, to interpret Matthew 24 from Ezekiel 37 or vis-versa is not a valid example of Scripture interpreting Scripture - but linking two passages simply on a coincidence of an idiom of speech. 

[WailingWall]

On 12/2/2016 at 8:01 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

When you compare this:
Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 

With this:
Gen 37:9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me." 10 He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"

THEN you are interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

Like this?

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 –  voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord. 1Thes.4 does not happen 7 yrs prior to the goins on's of Zeph.1 as the Rapturist would have ya to believe

Edited December 3, 2016 by WailingWall

[WailingWall]

7 hours ago, eileenhat said:

There isn't any language pertaining to a rapture.

As you know.

The thing is, it is too late to convince anyone otherwise.

 

Hello eileenhat

I realize that for the most part. Although ive met some people who were Rapturist who have turned away from this false religion after studying the scriptures. People like Marcus O. will remain Rapturist no matter what the scriptures say. The strong delusion?? Gotta figure. Why else? To what end?

The "last" trumpet isnt really the "last" trumpet

JOHN 3 [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven. {They dont believe Jesus}

JOHN 7  [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I GO UNTO HIM THAT SENT ME.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME. {Again, they dont believe Jesus}

PROVERBS 3  [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

I guess they dont believe that Jesus will be able to protect them from the wrath to come while remaining on this earth. The scriptures are clear that He will.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

51 minutes ago, WailingWall said:

Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord. 1Thes.4 does not happen 7 yrs prior to the goins on's of Zeph.1 as the Rapturist would have ya to believe

You fight against fellow Christians and call them false followers by saying they follow a false religion.
This is not edifying nor beneficial.

1Th 4:16-17 does concern the Day of the Lord - specifically ordering that the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ happens before the Elect are Raptured.

Zep 1 also concerns the Day of the Lord - however, it is directly addressed to the Jews as part of "Jacob's Trouble" - namely the Wrath of God that follows on the Day of the Lord.

Your manufactured sequence (voice-clouds-trumpet-crying) takes things out of sequence and ignores context.
So while both passages are speaking about the Day of the Lord - they are specifically not speaking about the same event.

And in your ignorance, those of us who are Pre-Millennial, and not only look forward to our Redemption on the Day of the Lord where some of us will never die, yet they will join those who have been rescued from the grave to be with Christ in Heaven - not everyone who holds to that aspect of eschatology thinks it's seven years apart.

In fact, from a Pre-Wrath point of view, they are only half an hour apart...