QUESTIONS concerning 1Cor.15 & 1Thes.4

[Marcus O'Reillius]

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

Yes the same israel that makes up the house of Judah and her gentile companions and the House of Ephraim with her gentile companions [christians] as per Ezekiel 37:16 

Once again, you have your interpretation wrong.

Ezekiel is written to Israel, not the Church.

That is why in the New Testament, we are the Elect gathered up at the First Resurrection, and the Jews coming in at the Second Resurrection are the sheep.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

I never said its not the signs

Yes, you did, and you got caught: you now have to back pedal and "spin" your response so you now attempt to say you didn't say it.

And what you said was a sign was not.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

Yes hes coming will be like lightening because Christ stated behold I come quickly with my rewards.

 

You assume both "comings" are for the same purpose.

This is why I criticize you for linking Scripture on the merest mention of a single word without regard to context as your Achilles' heel for exegesis.
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When Jesus comes on the clouds, He comes to gather us up.  Not reward us.

In the analogy of the wedding process, this is when the groom comes with a noisy band of his fellows with torches and trumpets, and calls his bride out of her father's house, and they go back to his father's house - where he has made a place for her.

Then there is the ceremony.

THEN there is the unveiling.  It is at the "unveiling" that we must give an account for ourselves - and THEN we are rewarded.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 hours ago, Salty said:

There is NO proof of a rapture to Heaven there, period. That idea has to be added.

Ah, gee Salty.  The Bible doesn't spell it all out for you?

Where we would need to "seek" if we could just neatly go to one verse and have it all explained for us.

If you haven't noticed, Scripture is often terse yet complex, with a variety of meaning being able to be given to it. 

Three simple words were written on a wall in Daniel's time - and no one could figure it out... except Daniel who gave the proper interpretation of what everyone could read actually meant.

The Great Multitude:

1. Number as the Church over two millennia being beyond any counting; extremely numerous!
2. Qualify as the Church having the same qualification: washing their robes clean in the blood of the Lamb.
3. Come OUT OF the Great Tribulation - which Jesus prophesized about in the Olivet Discourse, which ends the Day of the Lord and the gathering of the Elect!

They are the Elect He gathers up on the Day of the Lord - which is shown coincidental with the sixth Seal by its signature precursor sign of the sun, moon, and star sign.

You can fight all you want, but I still have John 14:3, the parable of the wheat and tares in Mt 13, 1Th 4:17-18, and 2Th 2:1 to buttress my argument.

And you have no Scripture to say we are transported to Jerusalem.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 hours ago, Salty said:

Firstly, that above in essence is a Pre-tribulational Rapture view, not a Pre-Wrath view.

The time of "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned aligns with the latter 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27.

No - Revelation chapter 14 describes the Harvest BEFORE the Wrath of God comes with the first Trumpet's fire and blood.

Two - The Great Tribulation is SHORTENED; it is not 1260 days long.  It does come after the midpoint abomination though.

Three - The one 'seven' is 2520 days long: not 1260.

So what I gave is NOT a Pre-Trib view.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 minutes ago, inchrist said:

And scripture refutes you again 

No, that is to the House of Israel.

In the Millennium, He will pour His Spirit out upon them too.

Both Jew and Gentile will be united in Christ, and ultimately, all of Israel will be saved.

[heyvavhey]

On 11/17/2016 at 2:16 PM, WailingWall said:

After being changed in the twinkling of an eye, we meet the Lord in the air. Where do we go from there? All the Rapturist claim we are going to heaven. Thing is, i cant find where that is actually written. Can anyone point out the scripture that makes that claim

 

 

The reason you can't find a "heaven" in outer space is because it doesn't exist there. When we are "called up to meet the Lord", we immediately go to a battle with Yeshua at Har Meggido (Ps 149:6-9) (Is 63:1). He does the fighting though and it's over quickly. 

Next, we appear on the mountains of Israel for a lavish banquet to celebrate (Is 25) the advent of Yeshua's Kingdom. Don't tell the baptists, but we'll all be drinking strong wine. It's likely we will also dance! Here, death is swallowed up, the Kingdom promised to Israel long ago begins (aka Millennial Reign), and the Law will go forth from Zion. (Is 2)

This is where all nations (goyim, gentiles) will come up to celebrate Succot (Zech 14), and we shall see His face, Immanuel (God is With Us) (Rev 21:24-26)

The place people think of as "heaven" is actually this earth restored to a Garden of Eden state at the end of this Millennial Reign. A new heavens and a new earth replace this one. Jerusalem of heaven (The Bride of Messiah - Rev 21:9) comes down to overlay Jerusalem of earth, and covers most of the middle east. At present, the geographic area that will become "heaven" is everything from Iran to Egypt, from Syria to Saudi Arabia. 

 

 

 

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Edited December 21, 2016 by heyvavhey

[heyvavhey]

On 12/21/2016 at 10:40 AM, inchrist said:

Who do you think the companions are?

 

 

These might be the gentiles who have joined themselves to the Tribes of Jacob. The text doesn't actually tell us they are Christians or even gentiles...only that they are companions. There are several cases in the scriptures where companions were other Jews, so that's not automatic. 

Every tribe, tongue, and nation will have representatives in the Kingdom, but not necessarily at the restoration of the Tribes in Ez 37

 

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Edited December 25, 2016 by heyvavhey

[Salty]

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Ah, gee Salty.  The Bible doesn't spell it all out for you?

Where we would need to "seek" if we could just neatly go to one verse and have it all explained for us.

If you haven't noticed, Scripture is often terse yet complex, with a variety of meaning being able to be given to it. 

Three simple words were written on a wall in Daniel's time - and no one could figure it out... except Daniel who gave the proper interpretation of what everyone could read actually meant.

The Great Multitude:

1. Number as the Church over two millennia being beyond any counting; extremely numerous!
2. Qualify as the Church having the same qualification: washing their robes clean in the blood of the Lamb.
3. Come OUT OF the Great Tribulation - which Jesus prophesized about in the Olivet Discourse, which ends the Day of the Lord and the gathering of the Elect!

They are the Elect He gathers up on the Day of the Lord - which is shown coincidental with the sixth Seal by its signature precursor sign of the sun, moon, and star sign.

You can fight all you want, but I still have John 14:3, the parable of the wheat and tares in Mt 13, 1Th 4:17-18, and 2Th 2:1 to buttress my argument.

And you have no Scripture to say we are transported to Jerusalem.

My Lord Jesus did not prophesy about coming out of the "great tribulation" in His Olivet discourse, He forewarned those in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the "abomination of desolation", and when armies surround Jerusalem for those in the countries to not enter into that area:

Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

None of that is speaking about a rapture. One has to ADD that idea to those Scriptures, especially with the fact that Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse that His coming and 'gathering' of the Church is AFTER that tribulation.

And just as the Pre-trib school has it wrong when the "day of the Lord" happens, so do you. The "day of the Lord" does not happen until the very last day of this world to end... the tribulation. It is when man's works are burned off this earth according to Apostle Peter in 2 Pet.3:10. It is when Apostle Paul said a "sudden destruction" happens on those who will be saying, "Peace and safety" according to 1 Thess.5.

Nor do I need lectures on how to read and interpret God's Word, I well understand the difference when it is speaking symbolically and metaphorically compared to literally. Based on your response you apparently are confused on that matter simply because you add events into Scripture that are not written because of heeding a doctrine of men. The idea is to study God's Word and let Him be The Judge and set the rule of measure, instead of allowing a doctrine from men be the measure and thus modifying God's Word to fit it.

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Salty

[Salty]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Once again, you have your interpretation wrong.

Ezekiel is written to Israel, not the Church.

That is why in the New Testament, we are the Elect gathered up at the First Resurrection, and the Jews coming in at the Second Resurrection are the sheep.

That's another topic you obviously are not studied on.

When God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms, setting up Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim as king over the ten northern tribes, its capital at Samaria, and was called the "house of Israel".  Jeroboam then setup false idol worship to keep the northern tribes from going down to Jerusalem to worship. A small remnant of the ten tribes migrated south to join with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin which were then called the "house of Judah" under king Rehoboam, Solomon's son.

The ten tribes God scattered to Assyria and the land of the Medes, never to return as a people, even as it is today. They lost their heritage as being of Israel. They were lost among the Gentiles, but they have been traced through history. Leroy Waterman, a linguist professor at the University of Michigan in the 1930's translated from the Assyrian tablets what the Assyrians called the captive ten tribes of Israel. And that Assyrian name he translated to the origin of the Cimmerians. Anthropology has a lot to say about the Cimmerian tribes which migrated through the Caucasus Mountains around the Black Sea, becoming known as Caucasians, and continuing all the way into Europe. Anthropology to this day still does not realize where these Cimmerian peoples originated from, but they know they migrated from the east. The Scots in their 13th century Declaration of Arbroath mentions a link to Israel and their migrations to those lands, linked with ancient Spain.

So after Jesus was rejected in Jerusalem, where did The Gospel then go to?

It went specifically to the peoples of Asia Minor and Europe next, and they believed, creating the seven Churches in Asia Minor, and eventually the western Christian nations which included the nations of eastern Europe, Great Britain becoming the first nation to accept The Gospel on a national scale even while Rome was still pagan.

This was aligned with what God showed in His Word concerning Ephraim. God's Birthright Blessings wound up on Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, and Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations" per Gen.48. To this day, God's Birthright Blessing is still... upon the head of Ephraim who is still head of the "multitude of nations" under Christ Jesus.

But Judah, i.e., who became known as 'Jews', had only a small remnant re-established in Jerusalem/Judea after their separate 70 years captivity to Babylon. The majority of the house of Judah (tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, some ten tribe remnants, and strangers) chose to stay in Babylon after the 70 years because God had taken good care of them there. From Babylon, those would be further scattered among the Gentiles.

So today, there are TWO Israels, not just one. There is the scattered "house of Israel", the ten tribes under Ephraim that would become "a multitude of nations". And then there is the "house of Judah" established in the nation of Israel, and also scattered among the nations as Jews. The majority of Israelites were not Jews of the "house of Judah". Only those of the "house of Judah" took that title of Jew, which originates from Judah.