Problem of Genesis 1&2

[adamjedgar]

On 12/19/2021 at 12:12 PM, Waggles said:

No - Genesis 2 is a different story that takes place after God rested on the seventh 'day.' When Adam was created angels had already trespassed and fallen. 

Have you ever read Ezekiel 28? I think you should.

[Waggles]

5 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

Have you ever read Ezekiel 28? I think you should.

Yes I have 

Ezekiel 28:11-19 teaches us much about the adversary, the satan, "Lucifer" who was the shining being in the garden of Eden.

And can you share with the rest of us the relevance of this in respect to Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 ??

[adamjedgar]

6 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

No - Genesis 2 is a different story that takes place after God rested on the seventh 'day.' When Adam was created angels had already trespassed and fallen. 

dont you remember this post above that you just made?

 

so here is your dilemma,

either the prince of Tyre (Lucifer as the covering cherub) was not in the Garden of Eden on earth, or the creation event was complete before Lucifer fell from heaven with his angels! 

So which is it going to be?

Edited December 31, 2021 by adamjedgar

[Waggles]

18 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

dont you remember this post above that you just made?

 

so here is your dilemma,

either the prince of Tyre (Lucifer as the covering cherub) was not in the Garden of Eden on earth, or the creation event was complete before Lucifer fell from heaven with his angels! 

So which is it going to be?

You present a false dilemma. It is not what you write. 

God created human beings, male and female, and instructed them to be fruitful and multiply: then God rested from all his works and this period of rest allowed human beings to grow in numbers and to fill the world.

At some stage in all of this there was a rebellion and a trespassing of the laws governing the roles of angels who were also present in the world. For when Adam and Eve were formed and separated from other humans and placed in the garden to have a direct personal relationship with God their Creator - "Lucifer" was already in existence and was determined to ruin the holiness of Eden. 

Luke 10:18  And he [Jesus] said to them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.

Genesis 3:1  Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?”

This story is indicative of the gospel and the Spirit-filled church today. Where the saints who are baptized in water and the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues, are called out of the world and separated and consecrated by God for a direct personal relationship with God. And still today the adversary of fallen angels tempt the saints to fall.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Waggles

[adamjedgar]

3 hours ago, Waggles said:

At some stage in all of this there was a rebellion and a trespassing of the laws governing the roles of angels who were also present in the world. For when Adam and Eve were formed and separated from other humans and placed in the garden to have a direct personal relationship with God their Creator

oh goodness where on earth do you get that from?

 

You do realise what the name Eve means yes? (ie that Eve was called this as she is the mother of all humanity)

"In chapter two of the book of Genesis, God decided it would be good for Adam to have a companion and helper. Causing Adam to fall deeply asleep, God took one of his ribs and used it to form Eve. God called the woman ezer, which in Hebrew means "help." Adam named the woman Eve, meaning "life," referring to her role in the procreation of the human raceSo, Eve became Adam's companion, his helper, the one who would complete him and share equally in his responsibility for the creation. She, too, was made in God's image, displaying a portion of the characteristics of God. Together, Adam and Eve alone would fulfill God's purpose in the continuation of creation. With Eve, God brought human relationship, friendship, companionship, and marriage into the world." (https://www.learnreligions.com/eve-mother-of-all-the-living-701199)

 

If you actually read the timeline in the book of genesis, it is very clear that no other persons existed before the birth of Cain and Abel. Seth came after Abel! 

 

You then go on to quote genesis chapter 3??? ah hang on, we are in Genesis 1 & 2 here.

 

There is no evidence in Genesis 2 that Adam was actually created inside the garden itself...it a claimed by scholars that he was in fact created OUTSIDE the garden!

Genesis 2: 15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.

 

In terms of sin, we inherit sin because we are all descendants of Adam...that is the entire point of the statement in scripture 

"Romans 5:12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned."

Can you please provide specific scriptural references that prove your claim other people existed outside the Garden of Eden before the fall of Adam and Eve?

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by adamjedgar

[teddyv]

1 hour ago, adamjedgar said:

Can you please provide specific scriptural references that prove your claim other people existed outside the Garden of Eden before the fall of Adam and Eve?

Cain found a wife. I know the argument that it was a sister or niece, but I don't find that narrative particularly compelling. Incestuous relationship seems pretty long reach based on later prohibitions against it (as well as genetic reasons).

Outside scripture there is vast archaeological evidence of many humans at that time of history.

[Waggles]

3 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

Adam named the woman Eve, meaning "life," referring to her role in the procreation of the human race

Genesis 3:19  By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” 
20  The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. 
21  And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them. 

There is no scriptural teaching here that Eve was in particular the mother of all humans who would ever live in the world.

This may well be a reference from Adam that she would be the mother of all those who would live to be the descendants (genealogy) of Adam.

Gen 5:3  When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 
4  The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters. 
5  Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died. 

Are you upholding biological evolution and claiming that the diverse racial types of human beings that dwell on the continents (bar Antarctica) evolved from just two people in a mere 6,000 years? 

And then again all the racial types of humans evolved again and rebuilt their cultures and civilizations after Noah's Flood in just 4,000 years??

So when did the Chinese peoples become Asian peoples? And when did the native peoples of the Americas become a distinguishable racial type or variant?

And when did the peoples of India and Pakistan become the racial type that they are?

[Waggles]

3 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

Can you please provide specific scriptural references that prove your claim other people existed outside the Garden of Eden before the fall of Adam and Eve?

Genesis 4:13  Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. 
14  Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 
15  Then the LORD said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. 
16  Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.  [Sumer??]
17  Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch. 

Note all of this occurs before the birth of Seth - there are no other children or siblings mentioned in Genesis 4 (other than Abel). 

Genesis 4:25  And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.”

Note also before the birth of Seth that in the land of Nod and in the city of Enoch, there appears to be a supply of women to marry ... 

Genesis 4:19  And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

[adamjedgar]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

Genesis 4:13  Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. 
14  Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 
15  Then the LORD said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. 
16  Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden.  [Sumer??]
17  Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch. 

Note all of this occurs before the birth of Seth - there are no other children or siblings mentioned in Genesis 4 (other than Abel). 

Genesis 4:25  And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.”

Note also before the birth of Seth that in the land of Nod and in the city of Enoch, there appears to be a supply of women to marry ... 

Genesis 4:19  And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

i agree that these references show that people existed outside the garden of eden AFTER the fall of man, however, i dont see any correlation with the idea that was the case BEFORE the fall of man?

Let me just explain why...

God created man in his own image -Genesis 1: 26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itselfd and every creature that crawls upon it.”

God rested from all his creation and sanctified the sabbath day and hallowed it...a 'holy convocation to the lord' (Leviticus 23, Numbers 28 & 29) is a term used in Moses time. It was a special day for us to commune with God.

 

I do not see any logical conclusion where one can link:

 

"let us make man in our own image"

 

with the marxist claim in the 'satirical allegorical novel' Animal Farm by George Orwell:

 

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" (ch 10 page 112)

 

I believe that a loving God does not seek inequality in his creation of man

It is not within Gods character to propagate racism or exclusion beyond that which an individual may select of their own accord.

The point is, it is very obvious from themes and statements throughout the bible, God did not create 2 classes of society...we did that to ourselves, it was not Gods intention. One might say that this is one of the many lesser consequences of the curse of sin (the greatest being eternal death)  

Now i can already visualise the likely response to my above statement about "2 classes". What about the apparent exclusivity of the great nation of Israel, Gods chosen people?

I would suggest that after studying the gospel being taken to the Gentiles, google search 'spiritual Israel'.

I believe the Israelites were not chosen to be the only recipients of salvation, they were chosen to spread the gospel...the truth of the coming messiah...and in this they failed miserably, hence the giving of the gospel to the Gentiles to be spread to the world.

 

kind regards,

Adam

 

[Waggles]

4 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

i agree that these references show that people existed outside the garden of eden AFTER the fall of man, however, i dont see any correlation with the idea that was the case BEFORE the fall of man?

Because you are not reading scripture verbatim and learning directly from the word of God. You are applying doctrinal glasses and looking at scripture with preconceived learning from Roman Church teachings.

Why MUST Adam be the first man on Earth?

Adam is formed not created and placed in a garden separate from other human beings. here he interacts with God and yet He and Eve still listen to the voice of rebellion and fall. From this comes the wonderful plan of God coming into the world through a lineage descended from Adam to the Jews to bring about redemption of our souls.

Romans 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— this does not mean physical death but spiritual death and a denial of living into eternity WITH God.

Ezekiel 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

And again the analogy of Eden is applicable today with sinners being born from above by the will of God, and having a personal relationship with God by his Spirit. But just as Adam and Eve disobeyed and lost the promise of eternal life IN the garden with God so to the ekklesia are continually tempted and tried by the serpent to disobey their calling and lose their reward.