An Atheist's Objections to The Bible/Theism

[Fiosh]

I would just like to reply about Moses.

The story of Moses is one of the most heated deabated topics in christianity. The man himself is surrounded with mystery, many claim he didnt exist. But its also widely misunderstood.  For starters, Moses didnt cross the Red Sea.  He crossed the Reed Sea.  It has been a mistranslation through time that somehow stuck(much like Columbus discovering America).  The Reed sea was no where near the size of the Red sea.

One of the many objections ive heard to about the story of Moses has to do with the horses and chariots that supposed followed them.  Historians reapeatedly said that the egyptians didnt have nearly the amount described in the bible.  But a few years ago they unearthed a vast area of stables, enough to support what the bible says.

When Mount St. Helens erupted, a funny thing happened.  Many of the plagues described in the story of Moses, not all, but many came to life.  Live stock died, frogs came out from everywhere, the sky was dark from ash, vocanic ash fell like hail.  Now around the time Moses lived, a volcanic eruption off the canary islands occured.  One that was incredibly more powerful than the one of Mt. St. Helens.  Egypt would have easily been affected by the volcano.

Now remember Moses crossed the Reed sea.  When volcano eruptions happen, they many times cause tidal waves.  When a tidal wave occurs it pulls the water out, away from the shore first.  With the water being all sucked out, it would have made it possible to cross.  And it would have made it possible for it all to coming crashing back on the Egyptians.

Is the story of Moses True?  I dont know

Did nature make the story of Moses happen?  I dont know

Did god make the story of Moses happen?  I dont know

Did god make nature do what it might have did?  I dont know

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting stuff---thanks.

Can I ask you a question? Why do atheists not capitalize "God". If you are using it to refer to the God of believers, then you are using it as a proper noun, which is always capitalized.

I can understand that you wouldn't show His name reverence, but that's just good grammar.

I mean, you don't even have to believe He exists. I capitalize Santa Claus and the Jolly Green Giant.

The reverse, purposely not capitalizing someone's name is almost an insult.

Not?

No offense intended, just asking.

Peace,

Fiosh

[IronyLaughsatReason]

FIOSH

Firstly i would just like to let it be known that i am not an athiest.

Now to answer your question. Does god call itself god? Or is that just the name people use to define the creator. I look at god as just being the broad and general term. The word god/goddess was around before christianity. Their were many in both Roman and Egyptian religions. Christianity just simply uses the term god, to describe its creator, as opposed to say Islam which uses Allah. If Christianity called their creator Charlie, then i would capitalize Charlie. I wouldnt capitalize man or woman, but i would capitalize the man or womans name.

Im not trying to insult your god. I happen to think you god holds a much greater mystique than the others, which is maybe why their is not a formal term, but rather just god. I think it was Moses(but i could be wrong), who asked "who are you, what areyou" and god responded "I am what I am". I interpret that as being, we can call it whatever we want to call it, but any word we give it, will never truly be worthy of the cosmic being, because we are not on the same plain. We cant comprehend the awsomeness of it. So even the word god doesnt give your creator the respect it deserves, its rather merely just a word.

But if it really upsets people that much, i can capitalize God when refering to the Christian one.

[Gerioke]

I'll bet you he's a democrat

[Guest Garinus]

Hi guys. I'm an atheist.

Okay, where to start here. I know I'm not going to convince anyone. I've tried it on them before and they've tried it on me, didn't work. We're probably all agreed. So I think the most important thing to do here is understand each other.

I have a problem with all theology. Since this is a Christian site, I'll discuss Christianity.

Okay. A lot of the Bible stories are unbelievable, such as Noah's Ark which is, no matter how you look at it, physically impossible. Other things can be explained off with the work of God, which is understandable because he is meant to be all-powerful and all that. Well that's not the main problem I have with your God.

The main problem I have is the stuff that's hidden. The malicious quotes straight from your own holy book. Things that are glossed over or lied about or hidden. You ask most Christians and they've never paid much attention to the stuff I'm talking about, but let's have an example.

One of God's all-important commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Yet there are several passages in the Bible which contradict this; they show God killing or ordering deaths, or Moses ordering murder, pillage and rape, or prophets going about in similar fashions. As seen in:

From there Elisha went up to Bethel.  While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him.  "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!"  The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord.  Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces - "2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB"

Forty-two children are murdered by God for taunting a prophet.

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter.  And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? - "1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV"

In some cases, God just kills for no particular reason:

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill.  Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

    When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip.  But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. - "2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB"

He tends to kill a lot of children too.

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. - "Isaiah 14:21 NAB"

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.  Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.  It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.  I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.  But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."  O LORD, what should I request for your people?  I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.  The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.  I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.  I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.  The people of Israel are stricken.  Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.  And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." - "Hosea 9:11-16 NLT"

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all

[IronyLaughsatReason]

HORIZONEAST

I believe in a two fact world. If im here, that means i was born(fact 1), and if i was born, that means i will die(fact 2). I dont know why i was born and why i will die. I dont know where i was befor i was born, and i dont know where im going when i die. That is all i know for sure in this world. Yes i do believe in something, but i myself dont even know what that something is, which would make it impossible for me to describe it. I believe that something is out there, well i hope. I gather knowledge from all different sources, from Plato do Dr. Suess, which would include Veda texts.

FOGLIGHT

Again i take from all different sources.

GERIOKE

Except that source. I am non political.

[WayneB]

Hi Garinus!

I am a follower of Christ.

I suppose you could see this as an attack on your faith... but all the evidence for the more sickening quotes in your very own Bible are quite real, and thus any Christian here should be able to refute that there's anything wrong with them. Anyone want to enlighten me?

I don't see it as an attack on my FAITH and actually, you ask a very good question, one that I had to come to terms with early in my walk with Jesus Christ.

Let me answer your question with a question.

Where would you place the greater value? The leather pouch that holds the gold or the gold inside it?

There is so much more to man than this lump of flesh that is nothing more than an earthen vessel, which houses the spirit and soul of every man. Solomon wrote in Ecclesiates, "dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." [Ecc 12:7] So where is the greater value? In the dust, which is subject to decay, or in the spirit, which goes into eternity?

I believe in the sanctity of human life but I do not restrict that life to a lump of flesh. I understand it to be so much more. Regardless, it is ALL in God's hands and in HIM I place my absolute TRUST, that "God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." [Romans 8:28]

Now don't misread what I am saying. LIFE is not ours to take. It isn't up to us to dispose of another person's leather pouch when it isn't ours to begin with. My only point is that in order to grasp an understanding of God's perfect character, you have to look outside your flesh and finiteness and look into eternity with your spiritual eyes open.

Bless you,

Wayne

[IronyLaughsatReason]

HORIZONEAST

I dont come to this board to learn more about the faith, cause i actually know alot about it already. I was raised a christian. Im here purley for the discussions. Yes i do have knowledge of the bible, and i think its the greatest book ever written. Im not sure what questions your are talking about imparticular, but i will say this. I probably would find answers to lots of questions about the faith, because that is how the book is designed. Thats the genius of it. But just because it has an answer for something, doesnt mean it is the answer i was looking for. Or its an answer i believe.

I dont think that any religion ever present on this earth has ever pinned the tail on the donkey when it comes to our origins as humans. I believe something is out there. I dont understand how something(meaning us), could have come from nothing. We are the effect of what i believe to be an unknown cause.

In WE DONT KNOW THE QUESTION, i am included in the "we".

The world we live in is a direct result of Jesus. Let me try to explain in the least confusing manner i can.

Every moment that happens in the world, can only happen because the moments before it happened the way they did. The moments that happen are a culmination of all the moments before that. A billion tangents going into one point, and from that point, going off in a billion other directions. Everything that happens in the world almost doesnt happen. And vice versa. Let me give and example.

On June 14 Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, arrived in Bosnia-Herzegovina. During the motorcade, unknown to him, were serbian nationalists who were against the Austria-Hungary rule for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and instead favored union with Serbia. They were there to carry out an assination. As the car passes them, one of them tosses a grenade at the car. but he forgets about the 10 second delay, an instead hits the car behind Ferdinands, which a few of his advisors were riding in. Ferdinands car speeds away quickly, amid shots fired. Ferdinand is brought to the reception at City Hall. It is there he asks the status of the people who were hurt. He learns that they are in serious condition at the hospital. He demands to go see them. Meanwhile the Serbs have met at the rendeveous, are no they are in serious trouble. The attempt was botched and they will soon be found out. One of the them, Gavrilo Princip decides he needs to clear his head and goes on a walk to get a sandwich by himself. One of Ferdinands advisors maps out the best way to get to the hospital, avoiding city centre and people. But no one told the driver. Half way through their drive, he makes a right turn he wasnt supposed to make. The advisor in the car, realizes and tells him to go back. As the driver puts it in reverse and slowly backs up, Princip walks out of the cornor deli. They drive right past him. Ferdinand is shot and killed. World War 1 is started because of this. Germany is allies with Austria-Hungary, and enters the war on their side. They lose the war. The effect is economic disaster in Germany. The war debts they are forced to pay cripples the nation. The country is in absolute ruins. Now because the country was weak, and in such disarray, it allowed a man by the name of Adolf Hitler to come into power with his new nazi regime. Had Germany not been in the state they were in, the radical Hitler could not have come into power. So World War 2 starts. The nazi regime used Jews as the scapegoats for what was wrong. Hitler was a practicing Christian, and resented the entire race. Where do you think the deep hatred and resentment comes from. I believe it is because Jews denied Christ.

I look at the world as being a huge domino effect. The way that things happen now, will impact how things are later. I look at Jesus as being the most powerful and influential domino of them all.

[Gerioke]

There was an outer limits episode where the guy steps out of the time machine after going back to prehistoric times. He knows he's not supposed to change anything, he's just a time tourist. He accidently kills a butterfly, goes back to his own time only to find nazis running the planet.

Slightly off topic but I think that is what you are getting at

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Irony,

You stated prior that God is un-knowable? Yet you clearly believe that in a converstaion with Moses, He stated He is the I am. The un-nameable God.

The Bible which you have clearly read states that Jesus Christ was this God in flesh. That He was the culimination of this Word which was in the beginning. The I Am, born and veiled as a man. So that you could directly know God. You could actually see Him and have a definition and point of reference of who He is.

Not only that. This clearly was done so that your sins could be forgiven and for no other reason. Thereby bridging the chasm between yourself and this God.

The very fact tha Moses could converse with this God is point of order number one that He does indeed exist and that we ourselves can indeed know Him. Moses wanted to see His Face. God hid Him away and passed by in all His Glory so that Moses would not die. His flesh could not take this presentation and live.

Jesus Christ is this presentation and propitiation in the only form we can take in our fallen nature.

Peace,

Dave

[IronyLaughsatReason]

DR. LUKE

Thats what i have read and learned over time about the story of Moses. Its doesnt mean that i believe it.

GERIOKE

Correct