Romans 11 - the olive tree - slow and easy

[Guest shiloh357]

I have not abandoned the field. I have had other more pressing matters on the boards to deal with. I will address this nonsense in a day or two.

[Pilgrim7]

Ted,

Good, sound Bible exposition. We are fortunate to be grafted into Israel, the spiritual name given to Jacob because he wrestled with God for deliverance and overcame. The name Israel describes the character of God's people, they are overcomers. Only the overcomers will remain part of saved Israel sometimes refered to as Spiritual Israel. The rest will be broken off. The apostolic church was called Israel until the pagans called them Christian to differentiate them from Israel of the flesh. The Apostles were all Israelites, and at first they thought that salvation was meant only for Israel. God had to give a vision to Peter to get them to go to the Gentiles. He also had to raise up Paul as an Apostle to the Gentiles, yet they didn't turn to the Gentiles until after the stoning of Steven.

ACTS 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name

whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them

which heard the word.10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as

many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was

poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

ACTS 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next

sabbath.

13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and

religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to

hear the word of God.

13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy,

and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary

that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

It is amazing that God says to fear the possibility of being broken off as were the Jews and most have no fear at all. In fact they have the gaul to label the word of God as nonsense. Seems strange to me.

In the love of God,

Dennis

[Guest shiloh357]

It is amazing that God says to fear the possibility of being broken off as were the Jews and most have no fear at all. In fact they have the gaul to label the word of God as nonsense. Seems strange to me.

In the love of God,

Actually it is the anti-Semitic lie of Replacement Theology that Biblestudent espouses that I call nonsense.

[BibleStudent]

Pilgrim,

It is most pleasant to hear a reassuring voice such as yours. It tells me that my work is not in vain. At the same time it is disheartening to hear the rants of Shiloh who is unwilling to do the careful exegesis required of a true Bible student. When he substitutes

[EricH]

It is amazing that God says to fear the possibility of being broken off as were the Jews and most have no fear at all. In fact they have the gaul to label the word of God as nonsense. Seems strange to me.

In the love of God,

Actually it is the anti-Semitic lie of Replacement Theology that Biblestudent espouses that I call nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this a fair characterization of this theology? I don't know much about it, other than to assume that it teaches that the church has become the people of God, and are the true spiritual Israel. Maybe there is more to it than that.

I guess what I am asking is, does it mean that if someone holds to this theology they are necessarily anti-semitic? I though anti-semitism was having a bias against the Jewish people (against semitic people) for no other reason than thier semitic origins?

Just because someone holds that God has "replaced Israel with the church" would not make them anti-semitic, unless they held to that position just because they hated Jewish people. If they have biblical reasons, they are not anti-semitic. We may disagree with them on biblical terms, but calling someone anti-semitic carries alot of conotations, and can blur the argument.

If the theology has other things in it that make it anti-semitic, what are they? I think we need to guard against using an emotionally charged term to bias people against our opponents argument? That is a fallacious way of arguing called "playing to the gallery" (also I thing using the term nonsense is not logically helpful either). It is meant to inflate emotions, not talk about the issue.

Like I said, I am not familiar with this theology in detail, so I am just asking. What makes it anti-semitic? If there is truly an anti-semitic element, I would like to understand it.

[BibleStudent]

It is amazing that God says to fear the possibility of being broken off as were the Jews and most have no fear at all. In fact they have the gaul to label the word of God as nonsense. Seems strange to me.

In the love of God,

Actually it is the anti-Semitic lie of Replacement Theology that Biblestudent espouses that I call nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this a fair characterization of this theology? I don't know much about it, other than to assume that it teaches that the church has become the people of God, and are the true spiritual Israel. Maybe there is more to it than that.

I guess what I am asking is, does it mean that if someone holds to this theology they are necessarily anti-semitic? I though anti-semitism was having a bias against the Jewish people (against semitic people) for no other reason than thier semitic origins?

Just because someone holds that God has "replaced Israel with the church" would not make them anti-semitic, unless they held to that position just because they hated Jewish people. If they have biblical reasons, they are not anti-semitic. We may disagree with them on biblical terms, but calling someone anti-semitic carries alot of conotations, and can blur the argument.

If the theology has other things in it that make it anti-semitic, what are they? I think we need to guard against using an emotionally charged term to bias people against our opponents argument? That is a fallacious way of arguing called "playing to the gallery" (also I thing using the term nonsense is not logically helpful either). It is meant to inflate emotions, not talk about the issue.

Like I said, I am not familiar with this theology in detail, so I am just asking. What makes it anti-semitic? If there is truly an anti-semitic element, I would like to understand it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eric,

That is a very good question. If you have the time, scan back a ways, and you will see an exchange between Shiloh and me about this. In short, Shiloh accuses me of anti-Semitism, utterly without foundation. Further, he calls my view "Replacement Theology." It is actually "Continuation Theology" in that it shows that the church is a continuation of the true Israel of God (Gal 6:16). In fact, Shiloh's pet view is the true "Replacement Theology" in that it replaces the Israel of God with the Israel after the flesh.

All that said, Dispensationalism (Shiloh's view) believes that God has reserved a special future for the Jews called the "Great Tribulation." During that time, a huge number of Jews (around half of them) are killed during horrible plagues. In my view, all believers are saved, and the wicked are all killed quickly by the brightness of His coming. There is no distinction based on genetic heritage.

I ask you - Which view is anti-Semitic?

Ted

[EricH]

It is amazing that God says to fear the possibility of being broken off as were the Jews and most have no fear at all. In fact they have the gaul to label the word of God as nonsense. Seems strange to me.

In the love of God,

Actually it is the anti-Semitic lie of Replacement Theology that Biblestudent espouses that I call nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this a fair characterization of this theology? I don't know much about it, other than to assume that it teaches that the church has become the people of God, and are the true spiritual Israel. Maybe there is more to it than that.

I guess what I am asking is, does it mean that if someone holds to this theology they are necessarily anti-semitic? I though anti-semitism was having a bias against the Jewish people (against semitic people) for no other reason than thier semitic origins?

Just because someone holds that God has "replaced Israel with the church" would not make them anti-semitic, unless they held to that position just because they hated Jewish people. If they have biblical reasons, they are not anti-semitic. We may disagree with them on biblical terms, but calling someone anti-semitic carries alot of conotations, and can blur the argument.

If the theology has other things in it that make it anti-semitic, what are they? I think we need to guard against using an emotionally charged term to bias people against our opponents argument? That is a fallacious way of arguing called "playing to the gallery" (also I thing using the term nonsense is not logically helpful either). It is meant to inflate emotions, not talk about the issue.

Like I said, I am not familiar with this theology in detail, so I am just asking. What makes it anti-semitic? If there is truly an anti-semitic element, I would like to understand it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eric,

That is a very good question. If you have the time, scan back a ways, and you will see an exchange between Shiloh and me about this. In short, Shiloh accuses me of anti-Semitism, utterly without foundation. Further, he calls my view "Replacement Theology." It is actually "Continuation Theology" in that it shows that the church is a continuation of the true Israel of God (Gal 6:16). In fact, Shiloh's pet view is the true "Replacement Theology" in that it replaces the Israel of God with the Israel after the flesh.

All that said, Dispensationalism (Shiloh's view) believes that God has reserved a special future for the Jews called the "Great Tribulation." During that time, a huge number of Jews (around half of them) are killed during horrible plagues. In my view, all believers are saved, and the wicked are all killed quickly by the brightness of His coming. There is no distinction based on genetic heritage.

I ask you - Which view is anti-Semitic?

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would resist the temptation to label either position as anti-semitic. I would rather focus the discussion on what the text has to say

[Guest shiloh357]

It is amazing that God says to fear the possibility of being broken off as were the Jews and most have no fear at all. In fact they have the gaul to label the word of God as nonsense. Seems strange to me.

In the love of God,

Actually it is the anti-Semitic lie of Replacement Theology that Biblestudent espouses that I call nonsense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this a fair characterization of this theology? I don't know much about it, other than to assume that it teaches that the church has become the people of God, and are the true spiritual Israel. Maybe there is more to it than that.

I guess what I am asking is, does it mean that if someone holds to this theology they are necessarily anti-semitic? I though anti-semitism was having a bias against the Jewish people (against semitic people) for no other reason than thier semitic origins?

Just because someone holds that God has "replaced Israel with the church" would not make them anti-semitic, unless they held to that position just because they hated Jewish people. If they have biblical reasons, they are not anti-semitic. We may disagree with them on biblical terms, but calling someone anti-semitic carries alot of conotations, and can blur the argument.

If the theology has other things in it that make it anti-semitic, what are they? I think we need to guard against using an emotionally charged term to bias people against our opponents argument? That is a fallacious way of arguing called "playing to the gallery" (also I thing using the term nonsense is not logically helpful either). It is meant to inflate emotions, not talk about the issue.

Like I said, I am not familiar with this theology in detail, so I am just asking. What makes it anti-semitic? If there is truly an anti-semitic element, I would like to understand it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is as fair characterization of this theology. My ancestors after the flesh were mercilessly persecuted by so-called "Christians" who felt that they were the "true Israel," and with that ignorant assumption in hand, set to render to the Jewish people the retribution they felt we deserved. Replacement theology was also at the heart of Hitler's theological justification for the Holocaust. For the 1700 years it was those who believed that they were the "true Israel" that have been the chief source of pain and suffering for the Jewish people. Historical "Christianity," the type that preached what Ted Noel teaches has been a curse to the Jewish people and not a blessing.

What Biblestudent has to do is rip verses out of the natural context in which they appear to manufacture the heresy that the Church is Israel. He is taking a section of verses out of Romans 11, and treating them as if the they stand alone from the context of Romans 9-11 and using them to conjure the notion they prove that God has no end time prophetic plan for natural Israel.

Romans 9-11 is an explanation of the partial hardening that has occurred upon the hearts of the Jewish people and how God used that hardening to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. Paul is also now appealing to the Gentiles that they should in turn bring the Gospels to the Jews, out of whom it orginated.

Nowhere should Paul be understood to say that God is finished with the Jews, and in no part of the Bible does it say the "Church" is Israel. The Bible is adamant that God has an endtime plan for natural Israel, but Ted is blind to that. He has his own brand of hermeneutics.

Listen... Ted Noel is a former Seventh Day Adventist. The SDA church teaches this replacement (continuance) garbage, and this is a hold over from his days in the SDA. His book is being sold on a website that promotes SDA doctrine. That tells me all I need to know about where he gets his "theology."

I am not saying that Biblestudent is anti-Semitic. A lot of people say and believe things that they don't realize is racist. I hear Christians talking about "Jewing someone down" at a garage sale, or I hear other Christians claiming that the Holocaust was pay back for the Jewish rejection of Jesus and other hateful things. Most of the time it is out of ignorance, but it is still anti-Semitic.

[Yahsway]

AMEN! Shiloh, We should not as gentile belivers "boast" against the natural branches. And might I add, their "blindess" is only in part as scripture says ALL ISRAEL will be saved.

and one more thing to add, The Nations of this earth will be Judged on how they treated the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel. Scripture says so.

Yeshua is not some "greek gentile hellenistic New God to the Gentiles. He is a Jew, the Lion from the tribe of Judah, and we as gentile believers have failed miserably in taking the true gospel to the Jewish people. And Shiloh is right in that down thru the ages, many church fathers, including Martin Luther, have done much harm to the Jewish people (Hitler was a big fan of Martin Luther) and have done a great dis-service to true Christianity.

I have read here on the boards where the "church" will be wisked away in the rapture "leaving the unbelieving Jews to the clutches of the anti-christ and to go thru the Great Trib. But, John saw myrids of people coming out of the GT, and they were not ALL Jews. He said who are these? And was told they were believers from EVERY TRIBE, TONGUE,AND NATIONS.

Imagine that, plenty of Gentile Nations included in the Great Trib, not just the Jews.

We , as believers, are suppose to be provoking our brothers, the Jewish peoples, to jealousy, but as I see it, we have nothing to offer them but contempt and strife. Im sorry if I sound harsh about this, but this is the way I see it.

There is no "NEW" Olive Tree. It is the same Olive tree from the beginning, only now, we as the gentiles(Nations) by Yahwehs mercy, grace and great sacrafice of His Son, Yeshua, can now be "grafted" in as Wild Olive branches into the origional Tree, and the Jewish people who come to belief in Messiah Yeshua are grafted back into their origonal tree.

The tree did not start off as a Gentile Olive Tree. NO, we are "grafted into" as Wild Olive branches. We do not Replace the Origional Tree, we are only grafted into it.

And some origional branches have been broken off, but will be grafted back with belief in Yeshua. We grow side by side, branches that are wild and grafted into, and branches that are origional grafted back into.

Look at the branches on a Tree. They branch up and out. Side by side. But the root and fatness of the tree is Yeshua. He holds all the branches.

We know that there is an End time prophetic plan for Israel as a Nation because we are told that the anti-christ will sit himself up in the newly rebuilt temple and proclaim himself god. Also, we know that Yeshua is coming back to rule and reign from Jerusalem, with us as his kings and priests to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years. So, the land of Israel is a very prophetic place as it is His land. Scripture says so. There is even a scripture that talks about "dividing His land". Look what is occurring now right before our very eyes.

Yeshua is a Jew. Coming back to rule and reign as the Lion, the Prince of Peace, coming back to Jerusalem, and He will rule with a rod of Iron. No more the "suffering servent, but the conquering KING. Please everyone, be careful, do not boast against the natural branches. Love them, pray for them, witness to them, stand side by side with them, just as Ruth did. "Your God is my God, Your People, my people". Shalom and blessed by His Name forever.

[EricH]

It is as fair characterization of this theology.