Pilgrim7

Amen Brother dcampsart, Only those who love God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength eagerly await Jesus coming. They have the New Covenant experience, they have been 'born again' from above by the 'Spirit of the Living God' and are indwelt by the Godhead. They are Pilgrims and strangers in this land and long to reach their heavenly home. They love God and His will and will do anything to please Him in all things. 2co 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 5:18 And all things are of God..... Thus we see the fulfillment of the 'Everlasting Covenant' made in the Garden with all of mankind through Adam and Eve, that of a 'seed' who would 'crush the Serpent's head'. God Bless, Dennis

Brother Eric, I appreciate your response. As to the covenant referenced in Gen. 15, it was a promise only to inherit the land. As far as I understand, the Lord passing through, did not necessarily ratify the Covenant of Genesis 17, when Abram's name was changed and he was made the father of many nations, but only that of chapt. 15, although it was inhherent in the promise to him and his seed in Gen 15. As with most covenants, more was revealed through time. I am not sure that God ratifies Covenants, He only makes them and fulfills them. His word is all that is needed and then it is up to man as to whether he accepts the covenant or not. A covenant is a contractural agreement between parties. It is a binding contract between God and man. God proises to supply certain things and stipulates the requirements of the covenant, and man either agrees or rejects the terms offered. I see the promise of forgiveness and a Savior demonstrated in Genesis 22, when God provided a lamb as a substitute sacrifice for Isaac. This is where, as Jesus said, 'Abraham saw My day and was glad'. God bless, Dennis

Brother Kross, The covenant with Abraham was not one sided, but required much of Abraham, as do all the Covenants made by God. They are all just renewals of the 'everlasting covenant' God made with Adam and Eve to save from sin. All pointed to the New Covenant and Jesus, that was what the sacrifices were all about. All required obedience to the God who does not change. The covenant with Abraham was twofold, the first part was that he would be the father of many nations, as he walked before the Lord in tighteousness. Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be perfect. (so we see that God required obedience and righteousness) 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. The Second part of the Covenant was that he and his descendants would in herit the Cannan, the Promised land, which was also promised to Israel in the Old Covenant. Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your seed after you in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to you, and to your seed after you. (An everlasting Covenant is just that, a covenant that lasts forever) 17:8 And I will give to you, and to your seed after you, the land wherein you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (Now Abraham never possessed Cannan, as an everlasting possession, and neither did Israel, so this was speaking of the future inheritace of all the Children of God, the heavenly Canaan) 17:9 And God said to Abraham, you shalt keep my covenant therefore, you, and your seed after you in their generations. 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 17:11 And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between me and you. So we see that circumcision was to be a token or sign, ceremonial obedience, of the first mentioned Covenant to make him a father of many nations conditioned on him walking before the Lord and being perfect, or complete in doing the will of God. Here we have more of God's testimony concerning Abraham and His obedience which the Lord required above in renewing the covenant with Isaac, Ge 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you, and will bless you; for to you, and to your seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath (covenant) which I sware to Abraham your father; Ge 26:4 And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give to your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Ge 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. The Covenant with Israel was just another renewal of the 'everlasting Covenant' with the Law written in stone and a more detailed sacrificial system with its attendant feast days. The New Covenant was another renewal of the 'everlasting covenant' with Israel in which God would write His laws in the believer's heart, 'to love God with all the heart, mind, soul and strength' and to 'love your neighbor as yourself, which includes also ones enemies. This would of course include the Ten Commandments, which identify the main sins commited by the unsaved man. Here again it is not unconditional, but requires one be crucified with Christ and Born from above By the Spirit of God. It is an all inclusive covenant. Here again is the testimony of God on the subbject, 2co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Here Paul makes it quite inclusive. These do not save, but are the requirements of the 'saved man'. All of the covenants were to save, and all were freely offered, but all had requirements to follow God's will. I realize this is not popular today, but it is Scriptural. God bless, Dennis

It sure does. I guess I'll look at the dates a little closer from now on. God bless, Dennis

Suzanne, I just dropped by to check on an email address and came across your post. Good to see your still hanging in there. The 'abomination of desolation' is getting clearer and clearer. Anti-christ is a 'false christ', an 'Idol', preached by a 'false christian church' led by the 'spirit of anti-christ'. This is why Jesus stated: Lu 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night to him, though he bear long with them? 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth? (real living faith is the 'real Jesus' of the Scriptures, these are the ones who cry to Him day and night about the abominations done) 18:9 And he spoke this parable to certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: God bless and keep you and yours, Your brother in Christ, Dennis

Steven, Christians act like Christians. A good tree produces good fruit, and bad tree bad fruit. You will know them by their fruit. This is the word of God. It would seem to me that though this person was 'homeless', he was not a bum, because he worked and spread the gospel. He had access to many people because of his work. If we were to view Jesus and His apostles, they were homeless, but not bums, yet that is how they were viewed by many of the Church leaders of their time. They travled from place to place serving and sharing the Gospel. Jesus had no place to lay His head. Mat 8:19 And a certain scribe came, and said to him, Master, I will follow you where ever you go. 8:20 And Jesus said to him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has no where to lay his head. It would seem to me that this man did not need ministering to so much, as for others to join him in spreading the word. He was trusting His Father and doing His will as best he knew it. Jesus didn't spread the Gospel from a church building, with air conditioning and entertainment, but from the streets, where the sinners were. Sounds like a good plan, one that worked well for Jesus and His Apostolic Church. God bless and keep, Dennis

Brothers and Sisters, I have found that trusting is answer to every problem. Trusting the indwelling Christ through the Holy Spirit. It is His strength that we need, and it is His strength that we have through Christ, but sometimes we tend to forget that for we don't feel strong. All we need is in Christ, and Christ dwells in us through faith, and thus we are complete in Christ Jesus. As I train my self to always remember this, my strength is always renewed. 2Cor 12:9 And he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in (my) weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 2Cor 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives by the power of God, for we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether you re in the faith; prove your own selves. Don

Amen ezekiel33, It is all one event and Jesus will put an end to these religious games which masquerade as christianity. God Bless, Dennis

Of course no one endures in their own power. This has not even been intimated. Anyone knows that the Christian endures with the Power of God. It is just that some are denying the power of God and thus see no need to endure. It is an armchair, cruise control religion. It is alway God's power working in and through the 'believer'. Since he/she has the power, he/she uses the power to overcome and endure. 2co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. Now let see, is Paul taking credit for all these works that he did, or that we do? 2co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience (endurance), in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings; 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the Armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Only a fool would take credit for his/her own works, all those who endure in the power of God, know that it is not their own power, but His that strengthens them. Eph 3:20 Now to him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, Believe it or not, God supplies the power and we do the works. When it is God's power working through the believer, then it is not has/her works, but God working through the believer. Here is Paul speaking to this point: 2co 7:1 Having therefore these promises (the power of the indwelling Christ), dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Yet He also speaks of those who deny the power of God working through man: 2ti 3:4 (they are) Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. It is disingenuous at best to infer that the poster here is taking credit for what she is doing through the power of God. God Bless, Dennis

Letter versus Spirit #10 The 10th Commandment deals with the 'root of all sin', the carnal, selfish, self absorbed, sinful heart. Out of the heart proceed all the 'issues of life'. This is what needs to be changed in conversion. Only those with a 'new heart', a 'Spirit filled' heart will be able to escape the outward sins as defined in the 'Ten Commandments' as well as the myriad requirements of the 'New Testament'. The Letter of the Law- - The 10th Commandment Exo 20:16 Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet (#2530- desire for oneself) thy neighbor

Scriptures warns us of 'another gospel', 'another spirit' and 'another christ'. 2co 11:4 For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received (through our preaching), or another gospel, which you have not accepted (from us), you might well bear with him Paul was afraid that they would receive them and believe them) . Why did he fear this? 2co 11:19 For you suffer (allow, receive, put up with, believe) fools gladly, seeing you yourselves are wise (in your own eyes). A young believer may not know much about Christ, but if led by the Holy Spirit will grow in knowledge of the truth and thus the true Christ and is saved by Christ. It is a different thing for one to teach and preach another christ, one not in harmony with the totallity of Scripture, to ignore His plain teaching as though it doesn't matter what He said. This would then be a 'false Christ', a 'substitute christ', an 'imposter christ', an 'anti-christ', prompted by another spirit, the 'spirit of anti-christ'. The answer is no, belief in this type of christ does not save. This belief in an 'anti-christ cannot save, but just the oposite will damn those who follow. I believe that we have been warned of this throughout the Bible.

Letter versus Spirit #9 The 9th Commandment is deals with false witness against others, here again, a foundational principle of righteousness, the forbidding of basic unrighteousness. The Letter of the Law- - The 9th Commandment Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor. The 9th Commandment forbids all false communication, but especially that which would injure injure the reputation of another. Here again, there is no mention, or delineation of any positive communication. Thus only the sin is identified, not the positive aspect of righteousness in communication. The Spirit of the Law Now Jesus, in the 'Spirit of the law', as part of the 'New Covenant' experience of writing Gods laws in our hearts, expands this Commandment, as we have previously seen, to cover all our communication. Always speak the truth in love and don

So much for 'Christian courtesy' for I see that some have ignored my request to stay on topic. But thats OK, Shiloh, for when your ride in to rescue 'truth' as you see it, it brings so much more attention to the topic and brings so many more who are able to see the contrast between truth and error, between 'christian courtesy' and discourtesy. I guess that you enjoy 'train wrecks'. Always in Love, Dennis

Letter versus Spirit #8 The 8th Commandment is very basic, a foundational principle, forbidding the stealing of that which belongs to others. The Letter of the Law- - The 8th Commandment Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not steal. The 8th Commandment deals only with the physical acts stealing. Jesus, who gave the 'Commandments' and was the 'living example' of them, now expanded them to include the very thoughts and desires that motivate men. The Spirit of the Law Now Jesus, in the 'Spirit of the law', expands this Commandment, as He did all the others, showing the true meaning of godliness, the love of giving rather that receiving, the essence of the 'New heart' in which the Lord, who gave His life, dwells. Giving what one has received: Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely you have received, freely give. Going on to Perfection: Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If you will be perfect (#5046-finished, complete in virtue and integrity), go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Giving Forgiveness: Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind to the unthankful and to the evil. 6:36 Be therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged: condemn not, and you shall not be condemned: forgive, and you shall be forgiven (Hmm, here we have those who have been justified, being warned if they don't forgive, they won't be forgiven. So much for the false concept of justification): 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you mete withal(use on others) it shall be measured to you again (used on you). Giving what you have: Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. Giving of oneself: Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word. Christian would rather give that receive: Acts 20:35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring you ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Christian give to their enemies: Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 12:20 Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shal heap coals of fire on his head. 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Giving instead of Stealing: Eph 4:28 Let him that stoled steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needs

Wow, there is sure an effort to bury that 7th Commandment, I wonder why? Here again is Paul's teaching on Justification, in His own words: Only Past sins: Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST (I would hope that we can all understand that past means past, there is no present or future mentioned here), through the forbearance of God; Now Paul deals with any sin thereafter which would be future: Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Now why would Paul ask such a question? Because the converted, justified one is indwelt by Christ who is to live through Him and Christ would not lead him to sin, so Paul tells what happened) 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed (when I was crucified with Christ),I make myself a transgressor. (again, after he was justified, forgiven of all past sin, but now has made himself a transgressor again and must be forgiven for that new sin and thus justified for it) Now John tells us how this happens: 1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Now this is certainly not initial forgiveness or justification, which takes place at conversion, for that has already taken place. So we see that any future sin is forgiven at a future time, following the confession of it to God. Now this is a very easy point to grasp. If it was already forgiven at conversion, then why would any need to confess it at a later time in order to be forgiven at that time? At least be logical, if you are not going to believe the Scriptures. This is why there is a separation of the wheat and tares in the churches, to determine who have continued to confess their sins and be forgiven, and who have presumptuously assumed that they did not need to do so. God Bless, Dennis

They are not contrary to the Words of Christ, only your understanding of them which has been made quite clear in this thread. Bottom line is, though, how can the words of Christ, which you fail to even acknowledge, be contrary to Christ. Christ is not contrary to Christ and neither is Paul, when you understand him. This debate is over, Christ has the last word for He is the Omega, the end of all debate. Dennis

Amen Sister!! Dennis

Wow!! So many words contrary to those of Christ, His 'bargain basement teachings', now back on topic once again. Letter versus Spirit #7 The 7th Commandment one of the more basic, dealing with the passions of the 'carnal man' forbidding the exercise of such in any way except as God has designed and commanded. Is one justified or saved by keeping this commandment, of course not. Is this the totality of God's will concerning the conduct of man/woman in this area? Not at all. The Letter of the Law- - The 7th Commandment Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. The 7th Commandment deals only with the physical acts. Jesus, who gave the 'Commandments' and was the 'living example' of them, now expanded them to include the very thoughts and desires. He also used the term to condemn Idolatry, which is spiritual adultery against our True husband, Jesus. The Spirit of the Law Now Jesus, in the 'Spirit of the law', expands this Commandment, as He did all the others, showing the purity of heart required and provided by His indwelling presence. 7th Commandment expanded: Mat 5:28 But I say to you, that whoever looks on a woman to lust after (desire) her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 2pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness (sin), as they that count it pleasure to riot (live in luxury and ease) in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you (professing believers); 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; Men, do you hear what Jesus is saying, the 'letter of the law' deals mainly with actions, but the 'Spirit of the law' deals with the 'carnal heart' which prompts those actions showing not only the need for forgiveness, justification of one's actions, but a 'new heart' the ongoing justification of one's heart's desires, for the flesh does not just disappear upon conversion. The Purity of the 'New Heart' received at conversion which is when one is justified for all previously committed sins. Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: (not just action) for they shall see God. What do the pure in heart do with their minds? Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, or praise, think on these things. What is the end result that the Commandments are to lead to? 1Tim 1:5 Now the end (result) of the commandment is charity (love toward God and our neighbor) out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned (without hypocrisy; that works by love, keeping God's Commandments): 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside to vain jangling; What do the pure in heart do with Indwelling sinful thoughts? 2Tim 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts (desires): but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. What do the pure in heart do with sinful actions? 1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3:3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure (how pure?). 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 3:5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins (not just the guilt); and in him is no sin. 3:6 Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins (presumptuous, known sin, which is transgression of the Law, without confession and repentance) has not seen him, neither known him. 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you (there is no point in which there is more deception today than this very point):he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (and did righteousness and kept the Righteous law of God). 3:8 He that commits sin (now what does verse 4 say sin is?) is of the Devil(my friends, these are not my words, these are the words of God, thus the words of Jesus, through His servant John); for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil (and what are those works? The sins that are identified by the Law, the Ten Commandments He has been doing this work ever since the Garden when He convinced Adam and Eve to 'be Commandment breakers'). 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin (known, presumptuous, unrepented of transgression of God's Law, especially the Ten Commandments); for his seed (Jesus the promised seed, the indwelling Jesus)remains in him: and he can not sin (will not commit known, presumptuous unrepented of sin), because he is born of God (born again). Here again these are not my words, but the words of Our Savior, who ought to know what He is talking about. Does this mean that the 'believer' cannot or will not ever sin? No! it says that those who abide in Christ, won't sin. The believer who does not abide in Christ, abide in His Crucifixion with Christ, who feeds not on Christ, will not be able to be kept by Christ and will surely fall. Does this mean that then he is totally lost, of course not. Thank God for 'ongoing' justification in which he can confess and repent from this new sin and be forgiven and justified, accounted righteous again thus justified from any continuing transgression of the 'Will of God'. This concept is developed by John in John chapter 15. Yet this Scriptural truth sure does away with the heretical concepts and deceptions that man can't overcome known, presumptuous sin as described in God's Ten Commandments Thus we have the 'letter of the law', dealing mainly with physical acts, and the 'Spirit of the law', the Holy Spirit, which deals with the 'evil heart of man' which leads to the evil acts of breaking God's Commandments. You see the Gospel includes, make the tree, the heart, good and its fruit, thoughts and acts, will be good and this only happens when Christ dwells in the heart. So we see, that the 'letter of the Law' is fulfilled, kept and loved by the believer who has the 'Spirit of the law' dwelling within. God bless you all, Dennis

There would seem to be an effort to derail the topic. I wonder why? I would respectfully ask people to stay on topic. If you wish to argue justification, the cross, or the blood, please be courteous enough to open up your own topic and have at it. This is a thread on the 'Ten Commandments'. Now Back to the Basics, back to the words of Jesus and back on topic: Now as to not doing away with the Ten Commandments: Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass away(I don't think that this has happened yet, unless maybe I missed it), one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, until all be fulfilled (which would include the passing away of the earth). Now as to those who break God's Commandments and those who keep and teach them: Mat 5:19 Whoever (Now here is some radical theology, I believe whoever actually means whoever) therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (some more radical theology here, for I actually believe what Jesus is saying here, just as it reads, without any need for man to seek to try to tell me that He really means the opposite) Now as to the Commandments of Men: Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (that would be in the place of God's Commandments). Now Jesus can't be any clearer than this: Mat 19:17 And he said to him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. These are the words of Our Savior. They are not my words and not my twisted understanding of them. Even a child can read and understand them. There is no 'double speak' here. Our Savior is not seeking to mislead anyone here, but just telling the truth, for He is the truth and he cannot lie and doesn't play games with anyone, but makes clear what is required of the 'believer'. Ask a child to read and explain them to you and see what happens. You see Jesus is the truth, thus all that He said is truth and man's perverted understanding of some of Paul's statements will never change the above. All of what Paul wrote must fit into these words of Jesus, or one has an incorrect view of what Paul said. That is the purpose of this thread, to show that what Paul says does indeed fit into the words of Jesus. Either these words are truth, or Jesus is a liar. I, for one, don't want to be part of the group that calls Jesus a liar.

Wow!! So much for Christian love, now back on topic once again. Letter versus Spirit #7 The 7th Commandment one of the more basic, dealing with the passions of the 'carnal man' forbidding the exercise of such in any way except as God has designed and commanded. Is one justified or saved by keeping this commandment, of course not. Is this the totality of God's will concerning the conduct of man/woman in this area? Not at all. The Letter of the Law- - The 7th Commandment Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. The 7th Commandment deals only with the physical acts. Jesus, who gave the 'Commandments' and was the 'living example' of them, now expanded them to include the very thoughts and desires. He also used the term to condemn Idolatry, which is spiritual adultery against our True husband, Jesus. The Spirit of the Law Now Jesus, in the 'Spirit of the law', expands this Commandment, as He did all the others, showing the purity of heart required and provided by His indwelling presence. 7th Commandment expanded: Mat 5:28 But I say to you, that whoever looks on a woman to lust after (desire) her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 2pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness (sin), as they that count it pleasure to riot (live in luxury and ease) in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you (professing believers); 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; Men, do you hear what Jesus is saying, the 'letter of the law' deals mainly with actions, but the 'Spirit of the law' deals with the 'carnal heart' which prompts those actions showing not only the need for forgiveness, justification of one's actions, but a 'new heart' the ongoing justification of one's heart's desires, for the flesh does not just disappear upon conversion. The Purity of the 'New Heart' received at conversion which is when one is justified for all previously committed sins. Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: (not just action) for they shall see God. What do the pure in heart do with their minds? Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, or praise, think on these things. What is the end result that the Commandments are to lead to? 1Tim 1:5 Now the end (result) of the commandment is charity (love toward God and our neighbor) out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned (without hypocrisy; that works by love, keeping God's Commandments): 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside to vain jangling; What do the pure in heart do with Indwelling sinful thoughts? 2Tim 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts (desires): but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. What do the pure in heart do with sinful actions? 1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3:3 And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure (how pure?). 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 3:5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins (not just the guilt); and in him is no sin. 3:6 Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins (presumptuous, known sin, which is transgression of the Law, without confession and repentance) has not seen him, neither known him. 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you (there is no point in which there is more deception today than this very point):he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (and did righteousness and kept the Righteous law of God). 3:8 He that commits sin (now what does verse 4 say sin is?) is of the Devil(my friends, these are not my words, these are the words of God, thus the words of Jesus, through His servant John); for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil (and what are those works? The sins that are identified by the Law, the Ten Commandments He has been doing this work ever since the Garden when He convinced Adam and Eve to 'be Commandment breakers'). 3:9 Whoever is born of God does not commit sin (known, presumptuous, unrepented of transgression of God's Law, especially the Ten Commandments); for his seed (Jesus the promised seed, the indwelling Jesus)remains in him: and he can not sin (will not commit known, presumptuous unrepented of sin), because he is born of God (born again). Here again these are not my words, but the words of Our Savior, who ought to know what He is talking about. Does this mean that the 'believer' cannot or will not ever sin? No! it says that those who abide in Christ, won't sin. The believer who does not abide in Christ, abide in His Crucifixion with Christ, who feeds not on Christ, will not be able to be kept by Christ and will surely fall. Does this mean that then he is totally lost, of course not. Thank God for 'ongoing' justification in which he can confess and repent from this new sin and be forgiven and justified, accounted righteous again thus justified from any continuing transgression of the 'Will of God'. This concept is developed by John in John chapter 15. Yet this Scriptural truth sure does away with the heretical concepts and deceptions that man can't overcome known, presumptuous sin as described in God's Ten Commandments Thus we have the 'letter of the law', dealing mainly with physical acts, and the 'Spirit of the law', the Holy Spirit, which deals with the 'evil heart of man' which leads to the evil acts of breaking God's Commandments. You see the Gospel includes, make the tree, the heart, good and its fruit, thoughts and acts, will be good and this only happens when Christ dwells in the heart. So we see, that the 'letter of the Law' is fulfilled, kept and loved by the believer who has the 'Spirit of the law' dwelling within. God bless you all, Dennis

Wow brother Shiloh, You are in in good form today. Such a long post to counter a couple of Scriptural verses which show the truth of Justification, Wow, the cross, does one thing, the blood another. It was one act, that of laying down His life, all of which was encompassed in the crucifixion. It takes idle theologians to develop such involved, convoluted concepts from such a simple demonstration of love which saves, justifies, and sanctifies and will eventually glorify the 'believer' . I will respond in detail later, for It is God's Holy Sabbath Day and I am off to worship Him, with a small, independent, group of 'Sabbath keepers', on His Holy Sabbath Day. And no, I am not justified by this, but am just obeying one of His Command, which you have stated are necessary. You see, if I profane His Holy Sabbath Day, calling it 'common', then I would sin, and need to be justified for that sin, by confessing to Jesus that I had sinned, and being forgiven, which is justification, for that particular sin which occurred since I was Initially justified when I came to Christ. And just a reminder, this thread is about 'the Ten Commandments' and your 'sermonizing' is not going to derail the topic. Good try. If you don't understand 'justification' just believe what the words teaches, that when one comes to Christ he is forgiven only of his past sins, not as the theologians teach, past, present and future sin. It is only 'Commandment' breakers who would attempt to twist and spin the Scriptures to cover their disobedience to God and His Commandments. But I see that you view yourself as an 'expert' on this and you are quite expert on the teachings of man. God bless you brother, and as usual, I love you, even if your responses amuse me.

Now that we are back on track, I will repost this for those who may have missed it: Letter versus Spirit #6 Here in the 6th Commandment, the difference between the 'Letter' and the 'Spirit' is easily seen, and the 'bare minimum' of the 'Letter of the law' exposed for its inability to save or make one righteous. The Letter of the Law- - The 6th Commandment Exo 20:13 You shall not kill. (murder) This Commandment is quite simple to understand. We are not to take the life of another. Here even human wisdom tends to line up with God on this point. The penalty for breaking this command is just the same as that for breaking any other. The wages for sin is death. Thus the wages for murder or for bearing false witness is the same in God's justice, and here is where human reasoning departs radically from that of God as does the 'Spirit of the Law'. The Spirit of the Law In the Spirit of the Law, we not only don't murder people, but we love them as we love ourselves, and seek to lead them to 'abundant life', yes eternal life. Thus again we see that the 'Spirit of the law' necessarily includes the 'Letter', expanding it immensely. Love your enemies instead of murdering them: Mat 5:38 You have heard it said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 5:39 But I say to you, that you resist not evil (those who do evil to you): but whoever shall strike you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also……….. 5:43 You have heard that it has been said, you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you, and persecute you; Take no thought for yourself: Lu 12:22 And he said to his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what you shall eat; neither for the body, what you shall put on. The Christian gives up His life: Mat 16:25 For whoever will save (hold on to, preserve) his life (the Old Man and his sinful deeds) shall lose it (in the Lake of fire): and whoever will lose his life (be crucified with Christ) for my sake shall find it (preserve it life eternal). Crucified with Christ: Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth (from now on) we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now Christ lives within and through the believer: Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of (complete dependence upon to live righteously) the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the (letter) law (here we see what grace accomplishes, the righteousness that comes by being dead with Christ and Christ living His righteous life within and through the believer which is what the sure result of 'saving' faith), then Christ is dead in vain. Old man with His affections and desires is dead: Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh (Notice that is is past tense, has already happened in the 'New Birth') with the affections and lusts. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 2co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; New Creation Dead to the world: Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. (all of the world is not of the Father) 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature (indwelt by Christ). Wow!! Doesn't that take your breath away. No wonder Righteousness can't come by the 'Letter of the Law'. Just not murdering your enemy falls millions of light years short of the Righteousness of Christ bestowed upon the 'believer' by faith. It makes one want to exclaim as did the disciples, 'then who can be saved', but praise the Lord, all things are possible with God for the 'believer' 'can do all these thing through Christ who dwells in him' but only through Christ who dwells in him/her for he/she is a 'new creation' in Christ Jesus and it all comes by faith. So again we see that Jesus not only upholds the 'letter of the Law', but expands it beyond the comprehension and ability of the 'carnal man' to fulfill. God Bless, Dennis

Amen Emily~Anne, I appreciate your contribution, as I have made this point over and over again in this thread. Obedience does not merit anything, but disobedience, not confessed and repented of will definitely merit and earn us something, the wages of sin, which is/are death. You see the obedience that one renders when Christ dwells within is not of their own merit, for it is Christ working in and through them. Nothing is earned by this obedience, it is just proof of being saved, proof that Christ is working from within the 'born again' believer and that he/she has been 'justified'. When one is converted, He is justified, forgiven for all past sin only and then indwelt by Christ. This is his 'initial justification' and he stands clean before God. Any future sin needs to be confessed and forgiven for him/her to continue in justification. On Judgment Day, he/she will be judged, examined to see if they have been faithful to God and confessed and forsaken all known sin. Thus they would be 'finally' justified as noted in the last post. Here is the Scriptural support for 'initial' or 'beginning' justification with no spin and no merit: Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, (#4266-only sins previously committed before coming to Christ which makes it 'initial' justification) through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. There is no merit in this, nor in the resultant obedience that follows, for it is Christ living in and through the 'believer', and thus it is all His merit. Why would anyone be 'against obedience' and speak so disparagingly of 'Commandment keeping' and 'Commandment keepers' when Jesus does not. This is not aimed at you, but there are some who speak of 'Commandment keeping' in derision, as though 'keeping God's Commandments' was actually the real sin, when God speaks a 'curse' on unrepentant 'Commandment breakers' and will hold them in derision. The 'believer' having been 'justified' and 'indwelt' by Christ now has a work to do through Christ, and Christ gets all the glory, not the 'believer', as you have stated and I have stated numerous times in various posts. 2co 7:1 Having therefore these promises ('justification' and the 'indwelling Christ'), dearly beloved, let US cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. It can't get much clearer that this. There had better be 'ongoing' justification, for if there isn't, then all are doomed, for I know of no one who has not sinned since they were 'converted'. Rev 14:12 Here is the patience (#5281-endurance, perseverance) of the saints (#40- God's children, the holy or sanctified ones): here are they that keep the Commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. God bless you and I hope that your are able to read the entire thread. Dennis

Dear Brother Shiloh, I would suggest you read the totality of Scripture, before you come and accuse others of spin. I realize that your belief in OSAS demands that you discount the following Scriptures and the Parables of Jesus that speak to the possibility of man losing his 'initial' justification and thus eternal life. Many are called, which means chosen, which means justified, but only few are chosen, few in the judgment have retained their 'initial justification' and been sanctified and made holy. But I can understand your contempt for 'keeping God's Commandments'. You see in the 'new Birth, one is given a 'delight to do His will, for God has written His commandments in his/her heart. This I know, not just from the Scripture, but from personal experience. Mat 12:36 But I say to you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified (this would be final justification which happens on Judgment day, which is still future), and by your words you shall be condemned. It is quite obvious why you wouldn't like this one. Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (ultimately, in the judgment.) You see only those who confess and repent of sin in the process of Sanctification, retain their justification, and still have it on Judgment Day. I realize that you do not understand this, which is a shame. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (initial justification) 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, (but they have already been justified by Christ) we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? (that would be the indwelling Christ) God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things (sins) which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor (again and need to be forgiven for the new transgression which would be continuing justification, for, as you say, justification is the forgiveness of sin, but not just forgiveness). It is a very simple concept to understand, and it definitely needs no spin. Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith (ongoing faith which works by Love for it delights in the will of God) without works is dead? (It can be dead from the beginning, thus never being justified, or it can wither and die through presumptuous, unrepented of sin and thus be lost at any time, thus losing the justification that comes with the faith) 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works (on going or continuing justification which occurred long after His 'initial justification'), when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (this work demonstrated his faith and proved that he was walking in his justification that he received by faith) 2:22 See how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (works perfect our faith and establish our 'initial justification') 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which said, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 2:24 You see then how that by works a man is justified (ongoing justification, which fulfills or demonstrates his 'initial justification' is still intact), and not by faith only. There is more to Salvation that just the beginning. Beginning is nice, but the prize goes to those who run the race and finish the course. With your stance on the non necessity of Commandment keeping, it is easy to understand why you don't understand the preceding verses. There is more to Christianity than just doctrine. On judgment day, God examines the works of all, to see if their actions match their profession. This is a very simple concept to grasp. One's works demonstrate the quality of their faith, whether is real and demonstrates the 'initial justification' of Christ dwelling within, or whether it is just doctrine, and empty talk. You see all things come from Christ dwelling within, living His righteous life through the believer. If Christ dwells within, then one not only is accounted righteous, but he also is made righteous, and fully equipped for living righteously. As long as Christ lives within, one is justified by His presence, has His eternal life through his presence and hears and follows His voice from within and on judgment day will be vindicated and finally and eternally justified for by faith which works by love, for he has been sanctified, has finnished the course. You see, your doctrine of justification does not include the death of the 'old man' and the indwelling of Christ in the heart of the believer. It is quite a stretch at best and borders on blasphemy at worst, to say that the indwelling of Christ in the heart does not make a man righteous. What do you think makes a man a 'new creation'? Your logic and reasoning is quite flawed. Does the indwelling of Christ make a man unrighteous? He was unrighteous without the indwelling of Christ. What you are saying is that the indwelling of Christ leaves him the same as he was before, thus still and 'old man'. God bless, Dennis

Letter versus Spirit #6 Here in the 6th Commandment, the difference between the 'Letter' and the 'Spirit' is easily seen, and the 'bare minimum' of the 'Letter of the law' exposed for its inability to save or make one righteous. The Letter of the Law- - The 6th Commandment Exo 20:13 You shall not kill. (murder) This Commandment is quite simple to understand. We are not to take the life of another. Here even human wisdom tends to line up with God on this point. The penalty for breaking this command is just the same as that for breaking any other. The wages for sin is death. Thus the wages for murder or for bearing false witness is the same in God's justice, and here is where human reasoning departs radically from that of God as does the 'Spirit of the Law'. The Spirit of the Law In the Spirit of the Law, we not only don't murder people, but we love them as we love ourselves, and seek to lead them to 'abundant life', yes eternal life. Thus again we see that the 'Spirit of the law' necessarily includes the 'Letter', expanding it immensely. Love your enemies instead of murdering them: Mat 5:38 You have heard it said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 5:39 But I say to you, that you resist not evil (those who do evil to you): but whoever shall strike you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also