Few are chosen

[Guest Xan]

Naa.

[Guest racer]

jipsah,

Good E'vnin'  

I am, and it is.

Well, being a Calvinist does not necessarily guarantee your salvation.  No, salvation is not free.  You must have faith and believe.

By George you've got it!  We're saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves.  It is the GIFT of God, not of our works.  No bragging rights for anyone.  All credit and all glory goes to God.

Well, you appear to be operating under the notion that I believe works gets us in to heaven.  If that is what you believe, you couldn't be more wrong.  Believing in Predestination does not mean you were predestined to be one of the elect.

[Guest racer]

jipsah,

Helloooo again!  

You said:

The saved are saved because God chose them. The lost are lost because they choose to exercise their free will to rebel against God.  If anyone is lost it's of their own doing.

I said:  

And that statement above contradicts itself and the whole concept of Predestination.

To which you said:  

Nope, that statement described very nicely the Calvinist view of predestination.

Well, if God predestined you to be an "elect" being saved or lost is not a matter of choice on anyone's part but God's.

If you have some other view that you'd prefer to rail against, feel free.  I can only defend the one that I believe.

In case you didn't notice, it's not your view or belief that bothers me. :thumb:  (I don't recall railing against anything.)  It's the attitude you've donned because of your belief that I have a problem with.  Actually, there's no reason for you to defend your beliefs.  What you believe has absolutely no bearing on me or my relationship with Christ.

If St. Peter says that we can make our calling and election sure, I believe him.

You believe your understanding of what St. Peter said.  If you didn't notice, St. Peter said very little in comparison to St. Paul.  I could find you several verses of Scripture which would seem to contradict you understanding of what St. Peter said.

That precludes any possibility of me being perfect.

Well, I like to give people the benefit of doubt. :biggrin:

If you're being swept over Niagara Falls and just before you drop over the edge you're grabbed by a guy dangling from a helicopter, your salvation from being beaten to a fragments on the rocks below doesn't have anything to do with you being a strong swimmer.  It's the guy in the chopper who gets all the credit.

Right.  And if I held the belief of predestination, that analogy would be perfect.  But, to believe that, one has to believe God is merely a puppeteer and we're all puppets.

And I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I just have this terrible habit of saying what I think.  If God predestined a person to be one of His elect, I don't think sarcasm would be a trait He'd permit the person to possess.  Sorry, Xan.  That's just me :blush:

You probably reckon that you're good as any and better than some.  But that doesn't count for diddly.  We're all bad off, and we're all headed for the falls.

Do elect people possess psychic capabilities.  You keep making assumptions about me, and you don't even know me.  By saying that I don't think I'm bad off, I may have meant, "I'm not bad off, I'm living in the sewer."  You made an assumption about me (the statement of ". . . how bad off you are).  I took it personal.  Maybe you were just using it as a generalization.  

They have no grounds to figure that they're one whit better than the folks who get wahed over, because they're not.

Well, now that I know you know that . . .   Sometimes we say one thing about ourselves when our demeanor tells different.

Are we quibbling about timing now?

Are we quibbling?!?  ???

[Guest racer]

Xan,

But now that I have seen the bottom of page 2, I think both of you (elect, too) need to remember that we are all brothers and sisters and condescending and arrogance is not becoming of good Christian standards.

You are exactly right.  So, shoot me.  

No, no, not really.  I'm sorry.   My sarcasm was not justified or Christlike.  I will try (try) to not do that anymore.

God Bless!

[Guest Xan]

It's OK, racer    I used to joke that one of my spiritual gifts is sarcasm  G-d hasn't dealt strongly with me on this, but I have noticed over the past couple of months, I am slowly losing my sarcastic nature without even trying.  That doesn't mean I won't slip.  In fact I slipped today on this message board. :blush:

[elect]

Human reasoning proposes that since God is sovereign, He has everything under control, and since He knows everything, everything must be predestined in advance. This led to the idea that those predestined to be lost cannot be saved, and those predestined to be saved cannot be lost.This makes the warnings of Scripture; John 15:6, Heb. 2:1,3; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, meaningless.

When God created Adam and Eve He limited Himself by giving them the ability of choice. The presence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden shows that. God could have programed us so that we would always do the right thing--but we would have been puppets, machines. He wanted us to be freely responsive to His love and care. Love must be freely given or it is not love. Similarly, salvation is a gift (Eph.2:8)freely given and must be freely recieved.

We can choose to accept God's way of salvation through Jesus Christ or we can reject it,  Nor is a one time choice to follow Christ enough. We must continue to make daily choices and keep on following Him (Luke 9:23). For individually we are not predestined to do so. What IS predestined is the WAY of salvation and the fact that the Church IS an elect, or chosen, body.

When we do believe in Jesus we enter into a fellowship with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ (1 John 1:3). God has given us a part. We must come to Him, and we must come in faith (Heb. 11:6). There is much biblical evidence that God often waits to act until we do our part. In the ministry of Jesus we He came to Nazareth "He could not do any miracles there, except lay His hands on a few sick people and heal them. And He was amazed at their lack of faith.(Mark 6:5-6). Many other examples can be given from Scripture and experience that God works when people ask.He wants us all to be "God's fellow workers"; and that means He works with us and we work with Him. Prayer is the God-chosen means to make this possible.

May you be blessed

"Human reasoning proposes that since God is sovereign, He has everything under control, and since He knows everything, everything must be predestined in advance. This led to the idea that those predestined to be lost cannot be saved, and those predestined to be saved cannot be lost.This makes the warnings of Scripture; John 15:6, Heb. 2:1,3; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, meaningless."

It is not only 'human reasoning' that 'proposes' this. The Bible clearly states it. Do you doubt that God is sovereign? What do you think that means, if not what is stated above?

It is not that knowing God is sovereign 'led to the idea' of predestination. The Bible clearly teaches it. Do you doubt that this doctrine is taught in the Bible? The last sentence is incorrect. The warnings can not be meaningless, but we must

understand them as a means to an end for us. But we must be careful not to read into these warnings something that is not there. Arminians do not want to believe clear statements in the Bible concerning predestination and election. But that will not make those passages go away. Attempting to 'read' ships and other things into the Bible, when no such thing is in the Bible, will not make clear Bible passages on these doctrines go away, neither.

"When God created Adam and Eve He limited Himself by giving them the ability of choice. The presence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden shows that. "

Nowhere does the Bible indicate that the Lord would 'limit Himself' in the salvation of His bride. We lost the ability to choose God when Adam sinned. WE are the ones who are 'limited', not the Almighty. Do you doubt this? The presence of the tree in the garden shows no such thing as God being limited.

"God could have programed us so that we would always do the right thing--but we would have been puppets, machines. He wanted us to be freely responsive to His love and care. Love must be freely given or it is not love. Similarly, salvation is a gift (Eph.2:8)freely given and must be freely recieved."

I do not believe that we have been made puppets nor machines by these biblical doctrines. The above statement is an example of human reasoning gone astray. It is a 'strawman'. The sentence about love(being freely given) seems to imply that we can love God first. This is flatly denied in the Bible. The statement about salvation, at the end, is not referring to the kind of gift that God gives. He doesn't just offer salvation to people, so that they can turn it down. When the Lord gives, we are passive. His giving is always complete and successful. His grace is irresistable.-

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?..."

                                                                 Rom.9.19,20

Do you doubt this? Can you get the picture from these verses?

Is God's sovereignty in all things spelled out clear enough? Or,

are you saying, 'No' to the Lord?

You continued, "We can choose to accept God's way of salvation through Jesus Christ or we can reject it,  Nor is a one time choice to follow Christ enough. We must continue to make daily choices and keep on following Him (Luke 9:23). "

Nowhere does the Bible say this. It says exactly the opposite.

We are born dead to any good choices. That is why it is so necessary that we become born-again. Only after the Spirit of Christ comes to us do we want to choose to follow Jesus, never before-

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."                                                 Jn.8.36

Do you see the order in that verse?- the Son frees us first, and then( and only then) are we made free. Why do you think the unbelievers continue living in the lifestyle of their sins? Its because they are slaves-

"...Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." Jn.8.34

You added, "For individually we are not predestined to do so. What IS predestined is the WAY of salvation and the fact that the Church IS an elect, or chosen, body."

The Bible says that people are predestined, not things. Groups are made up of individuals. The Church cannot be chosen without the individual people *in* the Church being elected(chosen). God's way(or plan) is decreed, and within God's Providence. Lets not get terms mixed up. This confusion will not change the clear statements, in the Bible, that individuals are elect and chosen and predestined. These verses have been shown to you before. There is no excuse for denying these biblical doctrines.

"When we do believe in Jesus we enter into a fellowship with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ (1 John 1:3). God has given us a part. We must come to Him, and we must come in faith (Heb. 11:6). "

We enter into fellowship, but we do not enter into co-Saviour

status. Salvation happens first, before we can believe on Jesus. That is why it is of grace. Faith is a gift to us, not our gift to God. Nowhere does the Bible say that God has given us

a part in saving ourselves(justification). That is works-righteousness. It is not salvation by Christ's righteousness.

It is impossible to please God without faith. But the verse does not say where the faith to please Him comes from. We must come to Him. But the Bible clearly says that we cannot come before God gives first-

"...Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me,

except it were given unto him of my Father."    Jn.6.65

The Lord has to give eveything to us. He gives the ability to come in faith. He even gives us the faith. We are mere beggers before Him. But most people in the churches don't like

a low position like that. They want to have a vote in their salvation. Its a hard blow to our pride. Are you at Jesus' feet?

"There is much biblical evidence that God often waits to act until we do our part. In the ministry of Jesus we He came to Nazareth "He could not do any miracles there, except lay His hands on a few sick people and heal them. And He was amazed at their lack of faith.(Mark 6:5-6). Many other examples can be given from Scripture and experience that God works when people ask."

There is no biblical evidence of this. The passage in Mark does not mean that Christ was unable, only that He refused to honor disbelief. God is sovereign. He does whatever He wants with His own property(thats us, folks!). The Lord certainly tells us to ask. But this, in no way, means that His

hands are tied, and He becomes helpless before His creatures

(thats us, again, folks!).

You said, " He wants us all to be "God's fellow workers"; and that means He works with us and we work with Him. Prayer is the God-chosen means to make this possible."

Not in salvation. The Bible is crystal-clear that Jesus did it all alone. Do you doubt this? We cannot make our prayers heard

by God until He chooses to listen. We cannot pray a 'sinner's

prayer' until God opens our hearts.

[Guest Jipsah]

Well, being a Calvinist does not necessarily guarantee your salvation.

You're right, and no one ever implied that it did.

[Guest Jipsah]

Well, if God predestined you to be an "elect" being saved or lost is not a matter of choice on anyone's part but God's.

[Guest racer]

You're right, and no one ever implied that it did.

[Guest racer]

The peril they were in was their choice, their salvation was a gift from above, since once they got in that water they were utterly helpless to do anything to save themselves.

But how far in advance did the man in the helicopter know they were going to jump in?