Guest racer Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 elect, You did a very good job addressing all of the points cited in Karen C's post. However, you neglected to cite scripture to support your disagreements with the points she put forth. Upon what verses do you base predestination on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jipsah Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 But how far in advance did the man in the helicopter know they were going to jump in? Does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elect Posted June 28, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2002 Racer asked, "elect, You did a very good job addressing all of the points cited in Karen C's post. However, you neglected to cite scripture to support your disagreements with the points she put forth. Upon what verses do you base predestination on?" "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ... ...in love Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children... ...in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:" Eph.1.3-5,10f In another place, you said, "Your attitude when speaking to Karen C was condescending and belittling. Karen is apparently just as knowledgeable about Scripture as you appear to be, and just because her beliefs were different, you were belittling. " You addressed this statement to the wrong person. I don't think that my brother said anything to Karen. If anyone was in the wrong towards her, it was me :blush: . And, I hope Karen will forgive me for saying this, but, from her posts, I doubt that she is very knowledgeable about Scripture, not as much as Jipsah . I'm not trying to belittle her. I'm sure she has many excellent qualities, and is a valuable person. But, the brutal fact is that not all of us are equally knowledgeable about the Bible's doctrine of salvation. The important thing is that we know where to find the knowledge, and have a 'teachable spirit'. What I mean by this is, we find our answers in the Bible. We don't think up ways to 'get around' what is clearly taught in the Bible. IMO, you shouldn't argue with Jipsah about this. Sure, you have been taught differently. But, look carefully at the Scriptures on this subject. Seek to honestly understand what the Lord is saying in them. Understand your own bias against these doctrines, and ask the Lord to lead you into His truth. Hopefully, we are all seeking God's glory here. His glory is the most important thing in the universe. He has designed all things to, ultimately, glorify Himself. His salvation plan *must* be one that gives all glory to Him. We can use this forum to glorify ourselves(or try to) by showing that I am right, or you are right, and others are wrong. But that will not have any lasting value to us. If we seek to reflect glory back onto our precious Master, this will last the test of time and eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen C. Posted June 29, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 662 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/15/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/01/1960 Share Posted June 29, 2002 I'm not trying to belittle her. I'm sure she has many excellent qualities, and is a valuable person. But, the brutal fact is that not all of us are equally knowledgeable about the Bible's doctrine of salvation. The important thing is that we know where to find the knowledge, and have a 'teachable spirit'. Tho one thing I do know is that all the knowledge in the world couldn't save the Pharisees. Yes, I KNOW all the salvation scriptures, but some people pull a 2 Peter 3:16-18. But 1 Corinthians 1:26:30 should bring the point home. I didn't have a "RELIGIOUS" upbringing, I thank the LORD for that. I read His word, believed it ALL, and was saved, delivered and changed. I've had demons cast out of me, I've been healed PHYSICALLY, mentally, and SPIRITUALLY (ALL before ever attending a church service). ALL to the glory of GOD!!!! Could I come to your Church and tell them of the wonderful things the Lord has done in my life??? I cannot tell you how many people that I have led to Lord. (Not braggin', it's the Lord, not me) I was called to help a lady who was being demonized. I've seen a lady raised out of bed healed... Many other things that His word says shall follow those who believe:Mark 16:15-18. Yes, I even speak and pray in tongues... As far as knowledge, well I'm currently studing for my Pastoral license...OOPS. Sorry I don't agree with your doctrine. Because if it would make me compromise what the LORD has taught me. Because I stand on Phil 3:12-15. Sorry I will post no more rebuttals. In Christ, Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elect Posted June 29, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 29, 2002 Karen C. wrote, "Tho one thing I do know is that all the knowledge in the world couldn't save the Pharisees. " This is not a rebuttal of your rebuttal . I'm glad that we can be in perfect agreement over some things- like the statement above . Karen added, "Yes, I KNOW all the salvation scriptures, but some people pull a 2 Peter 3:16-18" It must be wonderful to know all those scriptures. I don't think I'm there yet. "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever. Amen." 2 Pet.3.16-18 Beautiful verses! Was there some particular portion that you wanted to apply? You continued, "But 1 Corinthians 1:26:30 should bring the point home." "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:... But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" 1 Cor. 1.26,30 These must be among my favorite verses. I notice that God's calling and God's chosen are mentioned a couple times in here. Does this mean that you now agree with the Bible's doctrines of God's calling and His chosen ones? You said, "I didn't have a "RELIGIOUS" upbringing, I thank the LORD for that. " If you mean 'a christian upbringing', I would say that you missed out on a tremendous blessing. If you are saying that unbelievers are not religious, I would have to disagree with you. Everybody has a belief system- a sort of religion- depending on how you define it. We all trust somebody. The trouble is, it usually isn't the Lord that we are trusting/believing in. Karen then said, "I read His word, believed it ALL, and was saved, delivered and changed. I've had demons cast out of me, I've been healed PHYSICALLY, mentally, and SPIRITUALLY (ALL before ever attending a church service)." This is amazing. She added, "ALL to the glory of GOD!!!! " Amen. Are you *sure* you're not becoming a Calvinist? This sounds very good to me . And then Karen C. said, "Could I come to your Church and tell them of the wonderful things the Lord has done in my life???" I can't give you permission to do that, but you can tell me. I'll be glad to praise the Lord with you . You said, "I cannot tell you how many people that I have led to Lord. (Not braggin', it's the Lord, not me) I was called to help a lady who was being demonized. I've seen a lady raised out of bed healed... Many other things that His word says shall follow those who believe:Mark 16:15-18. Yes, I even speak and pray in tongues..." Are you sure you're not bragging? When you speak 'in tongues', do these utterances have equal authority with the Bible? If they are words from God, they would be of equal authority with the word of God . I suppose this is my fault. I must have driven you to write like this. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings about knowing things :blush: Karen wrote, "As far as knowledge, well I'm currently studing for my Pastoral license...OOPS. Sorry I don't agree with your doctrine. Because if it would make me compromise what the LORD has taught me. Because I stand on Phil 3:12-15." I looked up the verses, but I didn't see anything there about women pastors . She added, "Sorry I will post no more rebuttals. " Why are you sorry? I don't mind reading your posts. You seem to have a lot to offer. I hope you won't stop posting because of something I said. We are supposed to disagree in these debates. I hope I haven't, inadvertently, been too harsh with you. I honestly tried to control myself, and to soften my first reactions to your previous posts. I probably was not too successful ??? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racer Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 jipsah, Does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racer Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 elect, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elect Posted June 30, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted June 30, 2002 Racer asked, "Who do you think the "us" and "we" are? Do you claim this statement refers to individual people. " In reference to Eph.1, the "us' and "we" are "the saints"(v.1), those who have been "accepted in the Beloved"(v.6), those redeemed "through His blood'(v.7). They are individuals which make up 'all those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only', as the old Confession says. You added, "Yes. We are called by God. But, He may not choose to call you or me until we're 50. " Then we agree that the Lord is absolutely sovereign in calling His people!? Racer said, "Your pretty good at hiding your sarcasm with sweetness. " There is no sweetness in me, but in God's words there is(Ps.119.103). But thanks for being kind. You added, "I hope you won't be offended, but having observed both of your (yours and Karen's) posts, clearly she is the most learned. Knowledge is one thing. Discernment is another. To actually follow His Word with humility and love is a little harder than being able to quote Scripture." You are so right. I think it very kind of you to defend Karen C. Racer wrote, "And sometimes it's good if we at least attempt to follow our own advice. " "Like I said, sometimes it is wise to heed your own advice" You're right. You said, "That's funny. Clearly I'm not as impressed by jipsah as you. Just by observing his attitude, he clearly is not very knowledgeable of Scripture." We are not able to 'observe his attitude', nor judge his motives. That's the Lord's business. Ours is to seek to be an encourager of those who faithfully wield 'the sword of the Spirit'. Be careful that you do not offend one of these 'little ones that belong to Christ'. If you will be a blessing to the Lord's faithful servants, your reward shall not be forgotten . You asked, "What I know, I have been shown by the Lord. What doctrines is it you think I have bias towards." You are biased against the Bible's doctrine of Predestination and Election. You argue for a works-salvation in your posts. I think that you would despise this system of works in Rome's teachings, but you have adopted a similar 'method of salvation' in your own thinking and trusting. There is a gross inconsistency in this. You would honor the Lord more, if you would embrace the biblical doctrines of grace in salvation. Do you agree that the Lord is sovereign? Racer wrote, "It appears to me, that you are seeking to glorify jipsah" When we love the Lord, we love those who are the Lord's (1 Jn.5.1). It is our privelege to try to be an encouragement to His faithful ones. "...honour to whom honour. Owe no man anything, but to love one another:..." Rom.13.7,8 You added, "Clearly, that's what you and jipsah have set out to do.(In reference to glorifying ourselves.)" We do not glorify ourselves, but our Lord. This is the point of our discussion. If we have chosen God(before He saved us), then we would glorify ourselves. After all, many have not chosen Him. We must receive some credit ,or merit, for our salvation. Its useless to argue otherwise. The fact would remain, that we freely 'faithed Him', or made 'a decision' to give Jesus 'a chance'. But the very point which Jipsah, and I, are contending for is that we were not seeking the Lord, but He found us. He didn't choose us because we were smarter, or better, or holier, than the ungodly. I was, and am, unworthy to be be loved.- "...the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number... But because the Lord loved you, and because He would keep the oath which He had sworn..." Deut.7.6-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest racer Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 elect, Do you believe that when we are called, we either answer or we ignore the Calling? Do you believe that you can successfully respond to the calling without having faith? Do you deny that Jesus Christ Himself said that "works" are to believe on him He hath sent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elect Posted July 3, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 41 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/24/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2002 elect, Do you believe that when we are called, we either answer or we ignore the Calling? Do you believe that you can successfully respond to the calling without having faith? Do you deny that Jesus Christ Himself said that "works" are to believe on him He hath sent? Answer to 1st q. We must distinguish between the outward calling and the inward one. When the sinner opens a Bible, and reads; or, when he goes to church(maybe twice a year), and hears the preacher telling him to repent; or, when he picks up a gospel tract, and reads it; he is receiving an outward call- "For many are called, but few are chosen." Mt.22.14 This outward calling can be, and often is, ignored by the sinner. But there is another calling in the pages of scripture. And it cannot be ignored. It has most often in history been referred to as 'effectual calling', or 'irresistible grace'. It always accomplishes the purpose that God sent it for- "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Is.55.11 "No man can come to Me, except the Father...draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn.6.44 That's a promise. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it. God said it, and that settles it. "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me;..." v.37 "...but the Spirit giveth life." 2 Cor.3.6 "Of His own will begat He us..." Jas.1.18 Not our will, but His. "And shall put My Spirit in you, and ye shall live,..."Ezek.37.14 "Yea, before the day was I am He; and there is none that can deliver out of My hand: I will work, and who shall let it?" Is.43.13 "...them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified:..." Rom.8.30 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Rom.11.29 Rather definite, isn't it? 2nd q. Hopefully the verses above show that we are entirely passive, as concerns the effectual calling. We do not act, but we are acted upon. Only after the Spirit comes into the sinner at his new birth will there be any saving faith. For faith is God's gift to the sinner- "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,...faith..." Gal.5.22 3rd q. If you are referring to John 6.29, it says that believing is "the work of God". I do not deny that believing is the work of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts