larryt Posted July 18, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted July 18, 2005 Have you ever read Jeremiah 30? The 7 years are for Israel not that Church Notice! Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Then, while the trubulation is going on!!! Revelation 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear. Where is the Church? why would it not say to the churches anymore??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Trinity, So who is going to preach to the Jews if the believers are all taken out. Just as the wrath of God was exacted on Egypt while the Jews were there so the wrath will be exacted on the earth while what is left of the believers are still here and they will be preserved. I ask again is there a pre-first resurrection/rapture or just a first resurrection? LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted July 18, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2005 Have you ever read Jeremiah 30? The 7 years are for Israel not that Church Notice! Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Then, while the trubulation is going on!!! Revelation 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear. Where is the Church? why would it not say to the churches anymore??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Trinity, So who is going to preach to the Jews if the believers are all taken out. Just as the wrath of God was exacted on Egypt while the Jews were there so the wrath will be exacted on the earth while what is left of the believers are still here and they will be preserved. I ask again is there a pre-first resurrection/rapture or just a first resurrection? LT <{POST_SNAPBACK}> where does the bible say it will be Us who will minister to them? God could use angels, not only, There will be two prophets, remeber in the Old Testament? How did the Jews come back to God? God rose up prophets to bring them Back Now back to my Question: Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Then, while the trubulation is going on!!! Revelation 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear. And where did the Church go? "In Revelation 2 and 3 there is a phrase that is familiar to Christians. It is HE WHO HAS AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES. This phrase occurs seven times in these two chapters of Revelation (one for each church). However in Revelation 13:9 the phrase is there but instead of the whole phrase, its HE WHO HAS AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR. You can see that WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES is omitted in Revelation 13:9. Why is CHURCH omitted? This inconsistency can only be accounted for if the Church isn't there in the Tribulation itself. This follows the entire pattern of Revelation. The pattern is Revelation 2 and 3 represent the Church age while Revelation 6 - 18 represent the Tribulation which is only for Israel and Gentile Nations. Why did John omit CHURCHES from this "lend me your ears" phrase? Because the Church is obviously not in those events - the Tribulation." -- http://www.geocities.com/stat23mj/prophecy/pretrib.html Note: Not here to start Problems I love all of you guys, just here to voice my opinion and i wont fight about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted July 18, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2005 And, Matthew 24 makes it quite clear that Christ will not come back until the antichrist has been revealed, and other scriptures support this. And i absolutely agree! Jesus will not return to earth till the antiChrist comes, but when Jesus appeared to Paul that wasn't his second coming, Jesus will apear like that to recieve us. Pretribbers don't believe Jesus come twice, its only once, for if you think we believe he comes twice we would call it his 4th Coming 1st.) Jesus lived on earth 2nd.) Jesus apeared to Paul 3rd.) Rapture 4th.) Battle BUT WE DON'T BELIVE THIS! You believe we believe this! Jesus is only Coming once! On battle day, But Jesus will apear like what he did to Pual. But you believe if Jesus comes before to rapture us that will mean Jesus would had come twice. Now, does this mean you believe Jesus' second coming was with Pual? Get my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted July 19, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted July 19, 2005 And, Matthew 24 makes it quite clear that Christ will not come back until the antichrist has been revealed, and other scriptures support this. And i absolutely agree! Jesus will not return to earth till the antiChrist comes, but when Jesus appeared to Paul that wasn't his second coming, Jesus will apear like that to recieve us. Pretribbers don't believe Jesus come twice, its only once, for if you think we believe he comes twice we would call it his 4th Coming 1st.) Jesus lived on earth 2nd.) Jesus apeared to Paul 3rd.) Rapture 4th.) Battle BUT WE DON'T BELIVE THIS! You believe we believe this! Jesus is only Coming once! On battle day, But Jesus will apear like what he did to Pual. But you believe if Jesus comes before to rapture us that will mean Jesus would had come twice. Now, does this mean you believe Jesus' second coming was with Pual? Get my point? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And I ask the question again: "Is anybody resurrected at the 'rapture?'" If so, is this a pre-first resurrection or is this the first resurrection? LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zayit Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Some church leaders teach that believing in an imminent pre-trib rapture will influence Christians to live holy lives. But the Scriptures teach, referring to the heavens and earth being destroyed by fire, "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?....Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless" (2 Pet. 3:11-14). There has never been a time when so many Christians believed in an imminent pre-trib rapture and yet the twentieth-century church in America can be characterized by almost anything but holiness. (With all the filth of the television programs and cheap output of the press brought into our homes, divorce, worldly dress and sports activities, ad nauseam.) Most Christians in America live and look too much like worldlings; there is no contrast, therefore in many cases there is no conviction brought about by the Holy Spirit in the lives of the lost. I think the two most important paragraphes in the whole article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ's Free Servant Posted July 19, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 197 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,461 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/18/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1949 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Some church leaders teach that believing in an imminent pre-trib rapture will influence Christians to live holy lives. But the Scriptures teach, referring to the heavens and earth being destroyed by fire, "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?....Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless" (2 Pet. 3:11-14). There has never been a time when so many Christians believed in an imminent pre-trib rapture and yet the twentieth-century church in America can be characterized by almost anything but holiness. (With all the filth of the television programs and cheap output of the press brought into our homes, divorce, worldly dress and sports activities, ad nauseam.) Most Christians in America live and look too much like worldlings; there is no contrast, therefore in many cases there is no conviction brought about by the Holy Spirit in the lives of the lost. I think the two most important paragraphes in the whole article. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There are a lot of good things in this article - what I liked is how the author tied together the spiritual condition of the present church with his beliefs on the rapture. This is not just about whether someone believes in the rapture or not - this is about the spiritual condition of the church in the 21st Century and how we are not preparing people for the return of Christ. There is just so much meat to this article that I think a lot of people will miss because they won't want to read another article about the pre-trib rapture. This is just so timely and it is a message that needs to go out to all the churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zayit Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Some church leaders teach that believing in an imminent pre-trib rapture will influence Christians to live holy lives. But the Scriptures teach, referring to the heavens and earth being destroyed by fire, "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?....Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless" (2 Pet. 3:11-14). There has never been a time when so many Christians believed in an imminent pre-trib rapture and yet the twentieth-century church in America can be characterized by almost anything but holiness. (With all the filth of the television programs and cheap output of the press brought into our homes, divorce, worldly dress and sports activities, ad nauseam.) Most Christians in America live and look too much like worldlings; there is no contrast, therefore in many cases there is no conviction brought about by the Holy Spirit in the lives of the lost. I think the two most important paragraphes in the whole article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted July 19, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2005 And, Matthew 24 makes it quite clear that Christ will not come back until the antichrist has been revealed, and other scriptures support this. And i absolutely agree! Jesus will not return to earth till the antiChrist comes, but when Jesus appeared to Paul that wasn't his second coming, Jesus will apear like that to recieve us. Pretribbers don't believe Jesus come twice, its only once, for if you think we believe he comes twice we would call it his 4th Coming 1st.) Jesus lived on earth 2nd.) Jesus apeared to Paul 3rd.) Rapture 4th.) Battle BUT WE DON'T BELIVE THIS! You believe we believe this! Jesus is only Coming once! On battle day, But Jesus will apear like what he did to Pual. But you believe if Jesus comes before to rapture us that will mean Jesus would had come twice. Now, does this mean you believe Jesus' second coming was with Pual? Get my point? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And I ask the question again: "Is anybody resurrected at the 'rapture?'" If so, is this a pre-first resurrection or is this the first resurrection? LT <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes we are resurected, but it is not the "First resurrection" For we know the resurrection of the Faithful Jews of the Old Testament will be after the Resurection of the Church. Isaiah 26:19-21 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer. The Resurrection of the faithful Old Testament Jews isn't even the first resurrection. I messed up about the other part So i deleted it haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted July 19, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted July 19, 2005 And, Matthew 24 makes it quite clear that Christ will not come back until the antichrist has been revealed, and other scriptures support this. And i absolutely agree! Jesus will not return to earth till the antiChrist comes, but when Jesus appeared to Paul that wasn't his second coming, Jesus will appear like that to receive us. Pretribbers don't believe Jesus come twice, its only once, for if you think we believe he comes twice we would call it his 4th Coming 1st.) Jesus lived on earth 2nd.) Jesus apeared to Paul 3rd.) Rapture 4th.) Battle BUT WE DON'T BELIVE THIS! You believe we believe this! Jesus is only Coming once! On battle day, But Jesus will apear like what he did to Pual. But you believe if Jesus comes before to rapture us that will m ean Jesus would had come twice. Now, does this mean you believe Jesus' second coming was with Pual? Get my point? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And I ask the question again: "Is anybody resurrected at the 'rapture?'" If so, is this a pre-first resurrection or is this the first resurrection? LT <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes we are resurected, but it is not the "First resurrection" For we know the resurrection of the Faithful Jews of the Old Testament will be after the Resurection of the Church. Isaiah 26:19-21 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer. The Resurrection of the faithful Old Testament Jews isn't even the first resurrection. Revelation 20 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. According to the Bible the FIRST Resurrection is AFTER THE TRIBULATION! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well we agree that the first resurrection is after the Tribulation. How many resurrections are there? I only count two. Re 20:5Â But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Re 20:6Â Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Here the first resurrection is mentioned coming before the "rest of the dead" and before the thousand years. Again I ask is there a resurrection before the "first resurrection?" If the first Resurrection is first how can there be any before it? LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted July 19, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2005 After the Tribulation Saints are resurrected then the FIRST RESURRECTION is finished. This can't be the rapture because then who are the men sitting on thrones in Revelation 20:4: "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. ..." These are raptured believers who already gone through the Judgment Seat of Christ. A POST-TRIB rapture allows no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ. Besides God The only people mentioned able to judge also is the Church! Revelation 20:4: "...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God" This is the second group, These are not The Church for these people do not have the power to Judge according to revelation. Yet we know the church will have the power to judge! 1 Corinthians 6:2 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?" Ill Put the same info another way so you get it fully: Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge (. period) And-(repursenting that there is a second group) I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. The bible never says that this second group can Judge, but it says the First group can, we know the church will have the power to judge! 1 Corinthians 6:2 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?" and Besides God The only people mentioned able to judge also is the Church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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