Salvation...Can it be lost???

[apothanein kerdos]

No, they do not say that simply committing one sin will cause you to be cut off, but they do teach that continuous sin will.

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Do you have a figure ? How long is "continuous" ? A day; a month; a year ? Does the length of time depend on the "severity of the sin" ? Where does the Bible tell us this ? Sorry, but this is legalistic, don't you think ? If you can't tell me an exact time ( if it's Biblical, you should have an exact answer for me ), then I'm going to trust that Jesus meant what He promised That I'm His forever

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but really ? When does 'intermittent' sin end and 'continuous' sin begin ?

Tim

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Wow, I didn't even think of that approach to it. Nice one

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That would be a nice approach except for one thing. You missed the point I was making. I was only using that example to show that educated people disagree with unconditional eternal security. I have already stated my position that if someone commits any wilful sin and has not made confession of it, they are cut off. I agree there is no place in the Bible that states you must commit a certain amount of sins to lose your salvation. You just can not have spot on your garment, which you will have if you commit wilful sin after salvation.

By the way, just to give a possible response from one that does believe you must sin a certain amount of times to lose salvation, the answer I would give would be that all judgement is left up to Christ, so it is entirely at his disgression.

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And I countered that asking where they were educated As I said, I've yet to meet a person that hold intimate knowledge of the Bible and the original languages that believes we can lose our salvation by sinning. Education is not needed, but when it comes to doctrinal issues it certainly helps.

[apothanein kerdos]

That would be a nice approach except for one thing.  You missed the point I was making.  I was only using that example to show that educated people disagree with unconditional eternal security. 

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I guess my point was an uneducated person disagrees with conditional security What does education matter when there's logic involved ? The Bible was written for lost sheep; ie. stupid people- AKA - ME. I'm no genious, but I know a good thing what I see it

God bless,

Tim

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Joy In The Journey,

The only reason this educated issue ever came up in the first place is Super Jew was claiming that he knows Greek and therefore can understand the actual interpretation of scripture better than someone that does not. He also claimed there are no educated people that take the position that one can lose salvation because of sin. I was not implying that those that believe either way are uneducated or stupid.

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Actually it began when you said you had a dictionary and I pointed out that having an intimate knowledge of Greek works better than a dictionary.

[apothanein kerdos]

That would be a nice approach except for one thing.  You missed the point I was making.  I was only using that example to show that educated people disagree with unconditional eternal security. 

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I guess my point was an uneducated person disagrees with conditional security What does education matter when there's logic involved ? The Bible was written for lost sheep; ie. stupid people- AKA - ME. I'm no genious, but I know a good thing what I see it

God bless,

Tim

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Joy In The Journey,

The only reason this educated issue ever came up in the first place is Super Jew was claiming that he knows Greek and therefore can understand the actual interpretation of scripture better than someone that does not. He also claimed there are no educated people that take the position that one can lose salvation because of sin. I was not implying that those that believe either way are uneducated or stupid.

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Actually it began when you said you had a dictionary and I pointed out that having an intimate knowledge of Greek works better than a dictionary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for clarifying that. Now let me ask you this. What type of Bible are you reading from? Do you have the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible? Are you using the textus receptis or some of the so-called more reliable manuscripts used in the new translations? Or are you reading from a variety of English translations and using commentaries to understand the meaning?

The only reason I am asking this is if you are not using a Greek Bible as the early church did, I fail to see how knowing Greek is any help to you in understanding an English Bible?

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I'm using a compolation of different manuscripts. However the majority come from the Alexandrian and Byzantine Codex's. THis will be your tactic from this point out in the debate; attack me and question what I know and how i know it instead of actually dealing with the issues. It's the only way you can "win".

[sail2awe]

There is an additional issue which losing and regaining and losing and regaining your own Salvation brings, namely that the individual can save themselves, that it is the individual who is in control. So, who is this individual? Is it the individual who's ways are not God's ways? or the individual who's righteousness is as filthy rags? or is the individual who stands before the God of whom the very heavens are not clean in His sight saying 'i will'?

Take a look at the 5 "I will"'s of Satan just for kicks and grins:

Isa 14:12-15

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart,

1. I will ascend into heaven,

2. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

3. I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

4. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;

5. I will be like the most High.

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

My Bible makes clear that Salvation is for His own purpose:

Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace...

That Salvation belongs to the Lord:

Psa 3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah. <=stop and think on that>

Psa 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

That Salvation is appointed:

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

God is willing to give:

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Is by Christ alone:

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

Announced after the fall:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Came to the Gentiles through the fall of the Jews:

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

CHRIST - The Captain of:

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

CHRIST - Came to affect:

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

CHRIST - Died to affect:

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

NOT by works:

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Is of Grace:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Is of Love:

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Is of Mercy:

Psa 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;

Is of the long-suffering of God:

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation

IS DELIVERANCE FROM

Sin

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

And the Devil+

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

From Wrath:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This present evil world:

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

For the whole world:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Described as Great:

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Eternal and Glorious:

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Is Common:

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

From generation to generation:

Isa 51:8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be forever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

To the uttermost:

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

It is the power of God:

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The Scriptures are able to make wise to:

Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hebrew word salvation is Yeshua, our English being rendered Jesus, the Christ's name:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

H3444 - salvation

ישׁוּעה

yeshu^‛a^h

yesh-oo'-aw

Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

[sail2awe]

Hebrews is written to Hebrew believers, and finds its climax in this chapter, in verse 10, saying this:

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This letter is NOT written to non believers, but to those who have accepted the truth of which the OT types and shadows pointed, that being the Salvation of God by the risen Christ.

This letter is one in which Paul is taking these believers to the instruction on how to keep on going on, and this really must;ve hit home, as they had continual offerings:

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

What force this would bring to the Hebrew Christian mind. Paul tells them they can let all that go, all those types and shadows. Now the Lord doesn't ever ask anyone to let something go without first giving instruction on how to go on.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith, but the Greek doesn't say faith, it gives us the word 'hope'. It would be good here to have done a study on the Biblical meaning of the word 'hope' in Scripture.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider

Now all this is in connection with the whole, which is the running of a race for what? For a crown, for reward. The whole of ch11 reminds them of all the faithful overcomers of overcoming faith.

Well, this then, is speaking of which resurrection, the first, the exanastasis, compared with the second, wherein one is 'hurt' of the second death. No, judgment has nothing to do with Salvation, but of reward.

If you want to tear these up, discecting them for learning, I should be more than willing to help, but if the goal is to find some verse, some where, any verse, any where that will provide you with all the authority of Christ, I shall be happy to save my efforts for someone who still has the desire to search and see what is actually written, as the next verse questions reward, and not salvation, which is a free and common gift.

[sail2awe]

That is a very interesting point. Since you brought this up, let me ask you something. Can you point to a time where you became a Christian?

Sure, you can ask, no prob.

About 5 years ago I got in a bad car wreck, <not my fault>, and am basically bed ridden. So, about 2 years ago, I began thinking that what these people are preaching just sounds too material, too feel good, too wrong, so I had a Dakes given me, which I cannot use, but it was a stepping stone with enough commentary to get me really searching to see if a thing was so. This, of course, leads one to the knowledge of the need to understand some language, so, I now study languages, even English at times.

No alter, no 'Public Worship' so called. My expectation is that the Lord will reveal to those who earnestly endeavor to know Him thru His word, simply believing, without any interpretation whatsoever, for this word is God's interpretation to us of Himself - and holy.

All in all, I can say that I am two years old since I was turned into another man:

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

I too use Codex's, Peshitta, The Companion Bible and several other tools and Concordances.

In Hebrews, it doesn't even matter if sin is willful or not, still, "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

It is reward which is in view, Salvation was accepted already, which is why they are called believers. Why don't you believe? You preport to be a Christian, or at least an ex something or other at a pulpit of somesort I read somewhere.

Edited August 9, 2005 by sail2awe

[sail2awe]

I do believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, however what I do not believe, is that I can live however I want and still remain saved.

Yes, I understand this, and will say some strong words, for it is foundational doctrine in which you reject, basic truth. This is written that we may know. Not guess, wonder, or reject. It is a condition of the spirit in man to NOT yield to another ones own self control, but exchanging our understanding for God's understanding? That is a poor idea indeed. God's understanding is the only truth. We should study to gleen a glimps of what this means in Eph 3:9, 'And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ'

Salvation is not the same as reward, many, MOST of us fail to make this distinction until we are shown it in the word of God. These are not my words which state grace is of God, we are talking of the Salvation of God here, and this is His great outworking and plan of the ages. You should at least consider the integrety of His words on this. He says, you are in my arms and no one can take you from them, you are in the Fathers arms and no one can take you from Him, the purchased price of the possession is been paid, ye are sealed until the day of redemption, and in Eph 3:20, Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, In Col He tells you are dead and your life is hid in Christ with God. Who is going to take you out of that place of safety?

This is the first letter in the entire Bible where we find truth for today for the hope of the nations <gentiles/ethnos>. You should know this stuff forward and backward, kjnow where every word is also written some where else, how the unity relates with the fulness and the emptiness judging by the background, instead I find contentious strife and doctrines of man being held above that which is written and would like to know why this is, how can this be.

Why do Christians use the Bible to say it doesn't say what it says, that it says something else, that it must be spiritualized, it must have meant to say my name where it says Israel and all kinds of amalgamation issues of overwhelming need, and this need is great within us all, for we are instructed for a purpose to study to show thyself approved, <thats the words earnestly endeavor of Eph 4.2> rightly dividing the word of truth, a workman needeth not be ashamed.

rightly dividing finds its base, which Timothy would know, memorizing the proverbs by age 5, speaks of God directing the paths. Paul would know Timothy would not even have to think of the LXX wording, being a Jewish lad in Asia or Greece <can't recall>, so when gentiles were finally given an apostel at the end of Acts, Israel just becomes one of the nations.

I say this because here is where my observation leads:

""There is a comparison between the levitical priesthood and Christ our high priest"".

Well, if we rightly divide the word of truth, we can't honestly say a gentile has a high priest, as only Israel has any preists whatsoever, Biblically, so this must come from traditions of man. And if it is Biblical, then it should have to be proven, which we are instructed All Scritpure is God breathed, but, it must be rightly divided:

Let me see if I can help explain this better by explaining what I believe, it might help me explain what is the message I think is most overlooked by Public Worhship:

Edited August 9, 2005 by sail2awe

[sail2awe]

I believe that God has spoken. That the Scriptures are inspired Truth. I believe that the Bible not only contains the Words of God, but it is in fact, and in truth, the very Words of God Itself. I believe that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

I believe that this full inspiration applies equally to Genesis as to Revelation. That Moses, when he wrote concerning the creation, or the flood that Mathew, when he recorded the life of the Lord Jesus; and that Paul, when he revealed the Mystery which God had kept secret since the foundation of the world, that these all were equally and fully inspired. For there can be but one result of a heart belief in the inspired Scripture, and that would be unconditional, and hearty, obedience. To those who believe that God has spoken, no argument can be advanced that will excuse disobedience.

This brings the conclusion, that all Scripture, being God

[sail2awe]

It most clearly does say wilfully,

The point of mine being that Christ doesn't need to pay for the reconciliation of the world twice. It doesn't matter if your sin is willful or not, He only pays once and the payment sealed you until the day of redemption. You are sealed if you are a member of the church which is His body, if you think you are graphed into Israel, then you were 'hewn down' when Israel became Lo-ammi.

Now, we need to move forward into the realms of strong meat, Paul doesn't leave us to our own understanding, Paul explains that

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Chirst doesn't have to do it twice if we HEBREW BELIEVERS...but what a willful sin is not explained until later, first the consequence:

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Now, what is judgment? Do you know what this means? I don't think judgment is properly taught as it simply reads. And it simply reads in total and complete conformity to the law of Israel, which is whom are addressed herein. So, Who and what are the adversaries? It is death and the grave, and those who say and believe the following verse, judgment is a full study.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy <common> thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Notice, it doesn't say the Spirit of grace fails in Salvation anywhere, so don't add it in there, OK?

Worthy of judgment, yes, worthy know matter what, isnt' everyone, don't we all fall short no matter what? and because we all fall short of the glory of God, it says judgment on those who would 'draw back', this does not say ever lasting punishing. The punishment is judgment.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

What is won, or in this case counted as loss is that of reward. Have you studied on the exanastasis? this word resurrection is anastasis, but when ex, or out is in view, it is the out resurrection, which is:

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

so, he's attained, he hasn't attained, which is it? well, it is two subjects, attained unto Salvation, and reaching toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ, with is the outresurrection of the preceeding verses:

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead

Edited August 9, 2005 by sail2awe

[sail2awe]

Also, I still see contradictions in the way you view works. If you believe in evangelism, and leading someone to say a sinners prayer, then you believe a person has to do a work to be saved. You never responded to that.

Also, you do not believe Jesus is our high priest. Hebrews 7:17 says, "For he testifieth; Thou are a Priest forever, after the order of Melchisedec." Verse 20 states, "And in as much as not without an oath, he was made priest." This belief didn't come from paganism, it came from the Bible.

lets not ambush this thread, would be happy to continue. if you would start a thread and give me the link, as this place is huge, I will happily discuss some of this in depth with Scripture:

I never said anything regarding evangelism, &c. And no, I am not a Hebrew, but if I was, how would you say they were affected by Acts 28. 28? and how does the mystery being revealed only after that come into your Biblical inclusions?

Correct, Christ is the head of the church which is His body. See, in this we are made aware of a closer relationship than husband and wife, it is one of head and body. In the milineum, you will not find evidence of a gentile dominion, but of the names of the tribe and apostles of Israel, which is that city which is heavenly who Abraham looked forward to coming down from heaven to earth, Heb11.

But it doesn't mention gentiles reigning as priests anywhere does it? in fact, if you read Eph and Col and 2 Tim and Phil, you won';t find any inequality in any of the members of this newly created body of believers who were chosen, unlike Israel, from before the foundation of the world, who will enjoy a heavenly sphere of blessing, in the heaven far above all heavens. This church of which is parculiarly gentile doesn't find an earthly inheritance, but Israel and those few gentile's God used to provoke Israel with for 18 years in what is called the Acts of the apostles, and made partakers of Israel's spiritual things have blessing on the earth. This fact alone says God will have an inhabited kingdom in the heavens and in earth, and we can't be in both places at once can we?