Salvation...Can it be lost???

[pretzelperson]

I believe based on what the Bible teaches that if a Christian commits wilful sin, and does not confess that sin to Christ, he is cut off.  The Bible in no place tells us that we can have any assurance of salvation when we have added new spot to our garment. 

It is the same way when it comes to the return of the Lord.  Jesus taught us that we must be ready to meet him, to be watching and waiting.  I believe if we are not doing that when he returns, and are caught up in wilful sin, we will be left behind to face the tribulation period. 

Concerning Hebrews Chapter 6, these verses in no way prove the doctrine of unconditional eternal security.  If anything, they should put fear in our hearts not to stray away from God because there will come a point where we have gone too far to be restored.  How would a person know if they crossed that line?  This is only my opinion, but I believe it is when the Holy Spirit stops dealing with them.  After all, if a person crossed that line, why would God continue to convict them?

I noticed one respondent said that if one could lose their salvation, Jesus' sacrifice was not enough.  That is nonsence.  Under the Old Covenent, if one sinned they had to sacrifice bulls and goats for those sins, over and over.  In the case of Jesus, he only had to die once for any sin that would ever be committed.  When we fail him, we don't have to nail him to the cross again to receive forgiveness.  We simply confess our sins and the blood he shed is sufficient. 

My biggest problem with the doctine of eternal security is that I have read the Bible through many times over, and do not find it to be Biblical.  In order to come up with this doctrine, most ministers simply preach sermons based on human reasoning such as the father and son relationship, or use arguments like the ones I continue to see in this thread about how no one can live right so it must be true.  I have even seen some, in desperation, try to say that certain whole sections of the New Testament don't apply to us today, making a distinction between Jew and Gentile, when in reality no such distinction exists under the New Covenant.  We are all one spiritual tree through Christ Jesus according to Romans.  The believing Jews are the natural branches, and the Gentile believers are engrafted by adoption. 

Clearly, if a person simply reads the Bible through, without having pre-conceived ideas, usually having been formed by the doctines of the Baptist Church, I believe they will come to see the Bible makes no guarantee of unconditional eternal security. 

Every denomination I have come across has some type of error in their doctrine that has been passed down from generation to generation because of the founder of the church.  That is the problem with following anyone, like a Calvin for instance.  Calvin was just a human being.  He was subject to making mistakes like everyone else, yet people debate this issue based on the man that came up with it instead of the Bible.  Why should we owe such blind allegence to this man, or for that matter any other?  The only way to know the truth is to read the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to be our teacher.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love these type of posts. They are great for discussion. If you disagree with Butero you are mis-informed and mislead by generations of Baptist Bible Beaters who are not and never have been illuminated by the Holy Spirit. These type of issues are made to be black and white doctrinal issues with one side being pious, educated, studied and righteous and the other side being un-educated, un-spirit filled and mis-informed. This is classic christian discussion board fodder.

[Remnantrob]

Hey Mr. preztleperson....though I agree with your agreement on the issue of whether or not salvation can be lost, i caution the judgement on who light is given to and who it isn't because the speck of dust you see in another eye may very well be the plank stuck in yours. Other than that, I agree it is a great debate topic and should always be looked into prayerfully.

[pretzelperson]

Hey Mr. preztleperson....though I agree with your agreement on the issue of whether or not salvation can be lost, i caution the judgement on who light is given to and who it isn't because the speck of dust you see in another eye may very well be the plank stuck in yours.

Edited July 26, 2005 by pretzelperson

[Remnantrob]

okie dokie artichokie

So how do we as christians come to an agreement on what is truth? I don't believe that the holy spirit is in conflict with the will of God, and I for one believe in absolute truth. So how do we break down these walls so that there is harmony in the body of Christ?

[pretzelperson]

okie dokie artichokie

So how do we as christians come to an agreement on what is truth?

Edited July 26, 2005 by pretzelperson

[Smalcald]

I agree.

I think there are some things in scripture, which are a mystery to us right now that will be revealed later. I think the drive to explain everything in the Bible in some sort of human understanding today can lead to error.

I see a continual tension in scripture, which is one of the reasons I find it truthful, it is not formulaic, it is real. The tension between free-will and predestination, both are biblical, the tension between the basic idea of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all one, yet distinct, the tension of being saved and called to a sinless life, yet being unable to totally live that life fully because of our sinful flesh, these are not totally resolved in Scripture, that is why we argue about them. This is one of those arguments, we know what is necessary for salvation, faith in Christ alone, we know that faith itself by necessity will lead to a changed life, a repentance and a growth, and a joining of the Holy Spirit to our beings, we also know that we will continue to sin after we have been saved. So where to go from there? I have no idea except to go back to faith and go back to repentance and keep trying. Satan wants us to give up, to believe our sins have doomed us. But that still does not answer the question of if one can lose their salvation.

Yet after saying that, I think most of the bible is pretty clear.

Even though we have many denominations from Catholic to evangelical to Lutheran to Charismatic, we in fact do hold the same basics of the faith. But because we are sinful creatures, we can't get along and we like to form our own clubs and sometimes forming our own club is the only solution, but it is never a complete solution.

Edited July 26, 2005 by Smalcald

[halifaxchristian]

I am persuaded that most Christians who believe that you can lose your salvation are sincere. They are well-meaning and to be commended for their commitment to holiness. However, unless you are a Christian who has walked through the valley of the shadow of death, you may never quite understand love the way that we backsliders have. That is not a knock on you, but a praise for my Lord. To whom much is forgiven, the same loves much.

[Smalcald]

I don't take it as a knock. Like I said I don't know the answer, I see both sides presented in scripture. I do believe that as long as a human can draw breath we can be saved though, regardless of what we have done or been through, or how many times we have walked the isle or rededicated our lives, etc.

If sinning means losing my salvation then I am lost. But the fact that Christ grants me this day of life today means that He is giving me another day to live and repent and come back.

[Remnantrob]

Do you agreee with the saying practice makes perfect? Or if not perfect then practical? Do you believe that a practicing sinner(one that knows better and uses his salvation as a license to sin) can enter heaven? I always believed that If you practiced something it becomes a part of you. I recognized that we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory, but then what is this power that is spoken of by Paul in Romans:

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

If there is no real power in the gospel to change sinners from their ways then what are we really promoting to the world? Why did Christ die? I believe that it is because of Christ that I can overcome. I have not fully demonstrated that in my life as of yet, but by the Grace of God I'm still in his saving arms as are the rest of us professing Christians here. But if we continue to do this back and forth thing and use our humanness(not a word ) As an excuse, then what really makes us different from the rest of the world? The fact that we say we believe in Jesus? I'm not condemning you or anyone on here because I have God to answer to for my faults also, I just want to put into perspective that the God I serve is more powerful than sin, death and anything that is not of him. I've made up my mind not to get discouraged because of the blood he shed for me, but also to put on the mind of Christ 24/7

Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

I'm sure that some if not most of you know the hymn Power in the Blood, in fact there's a member on these boards with that name. I advise you take a look at the words to that song. They are really a testimony to what Christ can do for us. Let's not give the devil all the credit because Salvation is free.

[apothanein kerdos]

Burtero, just so you know I am responding to your post and should have it completed later on tonight. However, I ask one thing, that you do not come back at me and accuse me of being brain washed or uneducated. I know Koine Greek and church history, likewise I look at scripture through the lense of other scriptuers and take no pre-set bias to interpretation.

So, I want your word right now, that you will not accuse me of being brainwashed, uneducated, or bias if I post a response.