Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Smalcald]

Here's a link to a really great study on the subject of salvation and whether or not it can be lost. The article is called, "Have I Fallen From Grace?" It's at http://www.gracecentered.com/haveifallenfromgrace.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate your posting that article. I am not sure I totally agree with the author's conclusions, but he makes a lot more sense than many of the posts I have read.

If I am understanding him correctly, he seems to believe one can only lose their salvation when they lose their faith, just as they become saved through believing. That is the general consensus of most that reject unconditional eternal security.

While it is my opinion that to sin wilfully against God will cost us our salvation unless we have the opportunity to repent, he did give give a reasoned argument for his views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds like the RCC view. That if you die with un-confessed mortal sin (willfully sinning), then you will not have salvation but damnation, regardless of your faith.

[sail2awe]

Hold on now, I never said there werent such a thing as willful sinners.. My point is that the apostle does't leave us to guess what the willful sinning might be, within the context he is giving. The apostle tells us what wilful sinners are, and it has to do with counting the blood of lambs and goats and bullocks more able to save than Christ's blood, thereby making His blood but common:

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Remember, this entire dialog has rested Jews and Jewish law regarding the taking away of sin. This is to believers. This isnot to establish Salvation, that had been established in the first few chapters, this has moven forward and is about overcomers of overcoming faith, why, the very next chapter gives a long list of them even;

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

What could a Hebrew do to be seen as trodding under foot the Son of God, counting the blood of the covenant by which they were saved as an unholy thing?

Well, they could put their trust in the blood of animals, they would surely lose their reward for doing that, for "draw back" unto bondage by the works of law, seeking their own salvation, but they "are not of them who draw back...but of them that believe to the saving of the soul". There it is, right in the very chapter itself:

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

perdition

apōleia, From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss

NOT THE LOSS OF SALVATION, loss of reward

Paul maintains the subject of reward and loss of reward being associated with the blood of Christ:

Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I am not trying to be 'right' here, I am trying to show forth some verses which contain God's interpretation, merely pointing to the verses which might bring to view the simplicity which is in Christ. We are clearly told that those who willfully sin, those who cannot see the true gospel, are blinded by the god of this world. Salvation is a free gift:

http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.p...425845&st=280

Edited August 22, 2005 by sail2awe

[Smalcald]

Here's a link to a really great study on the subject of salvation and whether or not it can be lost. The article is called, "Have I Fallen From Grace?" It's at http://www.gracecentered.com/haveifallenfromgrace.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate your posting that article. I am not sure I totally agree with the author's conclusions, but he makes a lot more sense than many of the posts I have read.

If I am understanding him correctly, he seems to believe one can only lose their salvation when they lose their faith, just as they become saved through believing. That is the general consensus of most that reject unconditional eternal security.

While it is my opinion that to sin wilfully against God will cost us our salvation unless we have the opportunity to repent, he did give give a reasoned argument for his views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds like the RCC view. That if you die with un-confessed mortal sin (willfully sinning), then you will not have salvation but damnation, regardless of your faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who is RCC?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Roman Catholic Church.

They hold that salvation is never secure for anyone, that we can never really know for certain, and that if we die with un-confessed mortal sin, we will go to hell.

It sounds kind of like what you are saying about dying with willful sinning in your life.

[sail2awe]

Butero, I feel this was a perfectly true picture story of He who was to come, and too, that this is adequately addressed in the NT:

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,

but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

Edited August 22, 2005 by sail2awe

[sail2awe]

The Roman Catholic Church.

They hold that salvation is never secure for anyone, that we can never really know for certain, and that if we die with un-confessed mortal sin, we will go to hell.

Wherein is the good news of Christ then? if it isn't in the finished work on the tree?

If it is left up to what men must do, then surely we should be most miserable men indeed.

[Kansasdad]

Here's a link to a really great study on the subject of salvation and whether or not it can be lost. The article is called, "Have I Fallen From Grace?" It's at http://www.gracecentered.com/haveifallenfromgrace.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I appreciate your posting that article. I am not sure I totally agree with the author's conclusions, but he makes a lot more sense than many of the posts I have read.

If I am understanding him correctly, he seems to believe one can only lose their salvation when they lose their faith, just as they become saved through believing. That is the general consensus of most that reject unconditional eternal security.

While it is my opinion that to sin wilfully against God will cost us our salvation unless we have the opportunity to repent, he did give give a reasoned argument for his views.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds like the RCC view. That if you die with un-confessed mortal sin (willfully sinning), then you will not have salvation but damnation, regardless of your faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who is RCC?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Roman Catholic Church.

They hold that salvation is never secure for anyone, that we can never really know for certain, and that if we die with un-confessed mortal sin, we will go to hell.

It sounds kind of like what you are saying about dying with willful sinning in your life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is not an accurate representation of what the Roman Catholic Church says about salvation. The Mortal sin part is correct.

[Smalcald]

Right, I agree, I was more just making a comment or observation, not trying to say you were Catholic. Catholics have this whole hierarchy of sin, mortal un-confessed sin I think puts you hell, the rest of un-confessed sin puts you in purgatory, etc.

I don't really get all of that.

But back to your argument about willful sin. How can we know, in that sin is thought word and deed, and we know that many things that we just don't find objectionable God does?

By willful sinning, do you mean committing a sin I know is a sin, and refusing to repent and ask for forgiveness for this sin?

[Guest ephesian]

Butero,

This probably isn't the place for me to share my heart, it seems to be a place to argue doctrine which I am lacking. I do however want to share my experience. I accepted the Christ at the age of 13 and by 16 started using drugs. This is a public forum and I will respect the fact that my life story would be offensive so I will give the reader's digest version. My life spiraled out of control and I sank to the depths of IV drug addiction and fornication. I struggled for years with AA/NA but found them to be lacking in the doctrine of the higher power. I came to Jesus broken and repentant. I cried for days and sought Him through His word for years. I stumbled with that scripture in Hebrews which said that there was no longer a sacrifice for my sins since I had tasted the truth and fallen away. I determined that I would follow Him with my whole heart anyhow "though he slay me yet will I trust him" I have been clean for 5 years now and was quite confident in His love and mercy until the other night . I read in my daily study a viewpoint which stated that it is possible to sin and grieve the Holy Spirit so much as for Him to leave "permanently". Well' I know in my heart that I sank to those depths.

I came here looking for reassurance and read your posts. You are obviously more enlightened than I will ever be and by the time I left this board, I felt alone and desperate once again. I suppose since there is no choice for me once again to return to the life that I left behind (drug addiction and fornication) as He showed mercy on me and delivered me from both. then I will have to walk confident that He was merciful enough to give me an abundant life here and when I stand before Him on judgement day; if I have nothing else to say but I have trusted in your forgiveness and I have given it my best. That will have to be enough. And if he then says "depart" then for all eternity you will have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so" and I will have the memories of the changed life I have enjoyed here to remind me of His wonderful love.

I'm going to stay the course period,

what else can I do?

the ephesian

[Smalcald]

I have always thought that the fact that Christ let me wake up this morning alive, was an indication of His longsuffering waiting for me to repent and come to Him again today. I have no doubt needed that promise.

So even if salvation could be lost, if one has true faith at the time of our death, that is all that matters, and I think part of true faith would be that one would not want to sin in the way butero is describing it. The question is in some ways academic to one who has faith, is it not?

[sail2awe]

ephesian,

Hello, and thank you for sharing of the Lord Jesus Christ's good work in your life. Keep up the faith and honesty ephesian, it is refreshing to see, I thank you for it in praising the Lord with you. Re the Salvation of God, recalling: