Don19 Posted October 2, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2020 4 hours ago, Peterlag said: Many churches teach God called certain people because the New Testament has places where it talks about those who God called. I think God called everyone and only certain people answered the call. In Ephesians 1:4, it says God chose us in Christ beforehand... and in Revelation 17:8, it says certain names have been written in a book from the foundation of the world. It's the group, the body of Christ that is foreordained from the foundation of the world, and not specific individuals selected by God for salvation. It's specific individuals who are elected to salvation. Jesus calls His sheep by name. Just read Romans 9:11-24. Jesus will give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him (John 17:2, 17:9). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Christian 1985 Posted October 2, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 105 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/22/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2020 Deleted video, and unrelated and promotional content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 2, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,972 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2020 8 hours ago, Don19 said: It's specific individuals who are elected to salvation. Jesus calls His sheep by name. Just read Romans 9:11-24. Jesus will give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him (John 17:2, 17:9). Paul had been faced with a lot of questions.... One of them was a question asked by the Jewish believers; How about our ansensors who lived and die before the Cross? The more specific question is, how about Abraham and all his offsprings, even his offspring by adaptation...beginning with Jacob from Issac... What about the Nation of God before the Cross... Those are the people God forenew, are they not? The people who had asked these kind of questions were people who had come to understand that only through Jesus Christ anyone can see the Heavenly Father... They also understood that Jesus was the first one to ascend into Heaven, that Heaven is his Inheritance.... Jesus Christ inherit Heaven for mankind...everyone under his blood (the forgiveness of sins)... This was very real to those who were asking these questions...only the people of Jesus Christ are in Heaven... The people were asking ; How about the people of God before the Cross? By asking this question they understood that those Israelites who had not die yet and did not believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as long as they do not believe they are lost till they believe... This is it they had understood the Judgment of faith in Jesus Christ...they understood that everyone will be judged whether he believed or he had refused to believe in the Cross... That includes that someone must preach the Gospel to them.... The Jews at that time they were not ignorant they study all their lives...they had a dip understanding of the scriptures about the Christ...they were prepared...that's why they were asking; we heard the Gospel from Peter and we believe!, would Peter go to our dead ansensors and preach the Gospel to them? Paul the same as Peter said ; Jesus Christ sent us to preach the Gospel to the living in the whole world...and in the world to come... Jesus took care of preaching the Gospel to everyone who had died before him... Beginning from John the Baptist and everyone in the Bossom of Abraham...that includes Abraham... John the Baptist was the one who identified Jesus here on earth and in his mission was to identify Jesus to Abraham and to everyone that was with him... Judas job was to identify Jesus as his Rabbi to the leaders, and the Priests... Which the leaders were still careful not to be deceived by Judas...but when Jesus healed the ear of the servant of the High Priest...then they said He is Jesus the Miracle man...they did not need Judas anymore...Jesus identify himself...gave up himself to them... Voluntarily... Paul explained the same Peter and all the other disciples believe it had happened... GOD sent JESUS to preach forgiveness of sins in his name right after he die...to all who had died before him.... And GOD sent us to preach the Gospel...forgiveness of sins in the Cross of Jesus to the living... Everyone was and is saved in the Gospel of Jesus Christ... Paul and Peter understood that those who had died before including those God foreknew his own people who with Abraham were waiting for their deliverance from their Captivity...they were waiting for the author of LIFE Jesus Christ... Paul said they are also in included in Jesus Christ because of their faith in him...so everyone else from the rest of the world...who at that time believe in Jesus Christ... Jesus gave testimony to Peter and to all of us when he let Peter see the people from all nations of the world those who were with him in Heaven, who had believed in him when Jesus was for three days In the place of the dead... Jesus died for all and he said the dead will hear the Gospel first and will believe...and receive the life first...by faith alone... Everyone like them is saved the same way " when one believes in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins". When one has forgiveness of sins ...he has the righteousness of the one in whose name they have forgiveness of sins...in his name..forever even in their life after death in Heaven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 2, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,972 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Josheb said: Right! We do not find people who do not believe in God calling upon God. They don't call upon the God they don't believe exist. This is axiomatic: Non-believers are not believers. And the misunderstanding most often occurs because folks take verses written by regenerate believers to regenerate believers about regenerate believers and they try and apply them to non-believers. It's not only eisegetic, it is irrational because.... Non-believers are not believers. And as far as the Bible's record goes, there's not a single example of anyone calling upon the Lord salvifically without God already working in that individual's life for that very purpose. I'll wait to read Peter's response to your specific inquiry but he hasn't directly answered anything I've asked so be patient. Great inquiry. ********* Romans 10: 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. In the context of these scriptures the reference to -LORD- is referring to Jesus Christ... it emphasizes that Jesus Christ is Lord...that the humble Jesus who gave up himself to die on the Cross...The Heavenly Father have exalted him after his resurrection above all and he gave him a name above all... that God made him the Judge and Lord over all... *** there is a certain element of someone being confused who does not know that you have Jesus Christ in your mind...when you say: God (God) and again God... Believe in God...not to believe in God....and so on...and then you introduce the "Lord"...implying the "Lord God " ... And then those who do not believe in God .... Many believe in God and are not Saved... You do not need to be an atheist to no be Saved...or to be lost... If someone dies in that standing... Someone can believe in God even die for his faith in God...or even kill in the name of God and fast and pray and live to praise God's name...all his life... BUT if he does not believe in whom God send to die for the forgiveness of sins...all good for this life...comfort in this life...BUT after death he will be surprised because it will not be God to Judge him ...but it will be Jesus Christ who will Judge him and his Judgment sit is between the one who is judge and Heaven... So no one gets to pass Jesus Christ unless he/she believes in Jesus Christ... Even if he/she is full of Love and they claim that they love just the way Jesus love... That they identify with the love of Jesus Christ... Still they cannot pass through... They need to identify with his blood... They must have believe that Jesus Christ died for the forgiveness of their sins...and the love is good...but what we need to pass through Jesus Christ and into Heaven is to be under his blood...to believe that he die for the forgiveness of our sins... Even if someone asks to appeal to God with a grievance against Jesus Christ desition to exclude anyone who is not under his blood ...God will say: I made Jesus Lord and the Judge of all... He is also the appeal Judge...or you do not have grounds for appeal, because you admit that you do not believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...through some other way you want to make your way to Heaven... There is only one way ..through Jesus Christ...the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world... I know you believe but others may attempt to manipulate your post without looking in the context of your post...full of faith in the Son of God Jesus Christ...for the forgiveness of your sins...but there is something that is highly commendable about you...when you say that Jesus Christ accepts the faith even of those who have a faith like a mustard seed...even those who believe with a lot of doubts...and wondering about a lot of things... Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted October 2, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 255 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said: "Call"...a word in the Bible used at least three different ways. Like you are saying there is the gospel "call" that goes out into the world, but only few will respond " ....for many are called, but few chosen". Then you have those who are "called to be saints ( saints typify all true believers). But then there is the third "call" that is widely misunderstood or misused. For all the verses that I have seen pertaining to a person who "calls" on the name of the Lord, there is an indication that that person is already saved. True believers "call" on or beseech the Lord daily in prayer and supplication. So what about verses like Romans 10:13, which appears to teach that anyone who "calls out" to God can then be saved? What do think? Yes!! The "salvation" in Romans 10:9 is not eternal salvation. It's time salvation. It's about the believer's rule for living. That by confessing Christ you shall be saved from the condemnation of your own conscience. Paul is drawing a contrast between that and the fact that those who were under the Law of Moses had to live by the Law. Of course,the Law can only condemn. And in verse 14, Paul even asks rhetorically, how shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? So clearly, faith comes first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 2, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,972 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Don19 said: Yes!! The "salvation" in Romans 10:9 is not eternal salvation. It's time salvation. It's about the believer's rule for living. That by confessing Christ you shall be saved from the condemnation of your own conscience. Paul is drawing a contrast between that and the fact that those who were under the Law of Moses had to live by the Law. Of course,the Law can only condemn. And in verse 14, Paul even asks rhetorically, how shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? So clearly, faith comes first. ***you need to revisit your understanding of Romans ten not just v9...and the terms you are using and your statement which it is impossible to justify that what Paul believed when he wrote this bless letter. .in his the years of his maturity... ***Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ***** Paul must have met people that frequent the meetings Gentiles being politheist all their lives and for generations... to them it would be ok to add another God to their lists of Gods and indeed it looks inviting to believe in Jesus Christ as another God with a lot of blessings and healings.... People from this backgrounds they can believe Jesus Christ as a healer...the God that healed....this and that kind of disease... and they can believe that Jesus Christ can heal them and they can be heal...even though they still believe in their Gods.. Paul gives this word of caution and not for to be used as a judgment according to our perception but as a guidance that people examine themselves and see where they are... Most of the people who read these scriptures who include Gentiles they do not have the slightest idea what those Gentiles believe about life after death...because Paul was sent to this part of the world where people believe in life after death and with good accurecy... they had a live interest in the life after death... that's why they were chosen by God to be the flag bearers of the Gospel...that's why they made the Gospel their national religion and stopped the persecution of Christians...and their leaders believed and help the Christian faith...and close down and destroy the Temples the way the Romans destroyed the Temple... the Gospel did not take roots in the eastern religions for similar reasons... Paul was telling people who come from ritualistic backgrounds...and followed in the Christian rituals...where as in the Jewish religion to follow in the rituals faithfully...is the way to where ever their ritual takes them...faith or conflation of faith was not required...because when people believe but were not doers of the rituals were Judge...as apostates and were excluded... Paul emphasizes that to be included in Jesus Christ and be part into the Heavenly Inheritance someone must have faith in Jesus Christ...to believe in Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for the forgiveness of our sins... Here Paul is emphasizing to believe Jesus Christ as Lord...which includes the way and the how God made him Lord...the Judge of all...and he will Judge every according to his faith in his heart to be saved from the descending Inheritance which is Hell and to have the right to be included in the Heavenly Inheritance which is Heaven... That's what the warden of the prison in Philippi was asking Paul after hearing from Paul that there is a new Inheritance for man the ascending the Heavenly Inheritance...that's what the warden dread...he dreaded the time that he will find himself as a prisoner n the underworld in the afterlife after he dies... That's what Paul was teaching the people to encourage them selves to find faith in their heart because that's what saves them...Paul he did not forbid the rituals...but he stress rituals without faith do not saved... They can have the marks of the rituals...but to be saved they need the mark of faith in their heart...and the Holy Spirit who testifies that they have been adopted as children of Jesus Christ and God...because of their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins...hat tell us that Jesus Christ knows who is his...even though the believer may look at his self and wonder if he is really saved...about why this or that...and we have a duty to do the work of the Holy Spirit to help them understand that they are saved because they believe...not because of the change in their lives...which we do not even know and that is may be taking place ...not that is a must ...a proof that someone is saved...that the believer has stopped going more and deeper in his crimes...may have develop a stop there conscience...that's not necessarily but how would anyone knows...looking and Judging with his own nearsighted eyes...Amen.. Edited October 2, 2020 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 3, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,972 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Josheb said: Thanks for the thanks. Two brief comments for the sake of clarity and emphasis. First, the Romans text is one of those written by a believer to believers. It's not written to non-believers. As I noted previously, non-believers do not call upon God (the Father, not His Son). It's not brain surgery. Second, as I also noted in a prior post in this thread, mere intellectual assent has absolutely no soteriological merit. Yes, many do acknowledge or have a belief in God's existence. That is not the same thing as having Christ as both Lord and Savior. Everyone and everything will one day bow and acknowledge Christ as Lord to the glory of his Father, but not everyone will or be able to acknowledge him as Savior. Intellectual assent alone is fleshly. God needs nor wants anything from sinful human flesh. It's not rocket science. It is God who works in us to do His will. We are volitional creatures so HIs work does not exclude our own but the simple fact is non-believers are not believers. This is axiomatic, not dogmatic. It does not get any more basic than that simple inextricable dichotomy. A is not Not-A. It is not rocket surgery . ****** Not everyone who believes in God and calls upon his name s a believer in Jesus Christ...Paul was careful knowing that people with faith in God and not faith in Jesus Christ will read his letters...and he was careful to always say those who call upon the name of Jesus Christ are saved...or the Lord Jesus are saved... He never said those who call upon the name of God... Paul teach that God gave us Jesus Christ to call upon him for everything we need... That's why we call Jesus Christ our Lord and not the Heavenly Father... We believe and also have the Heavenly Father because of Jesus Christ...no one had the Heavenly Father before...that's why we preach that Jesus Christ came to take us to the Heavenly Father...both for the Jews and the Gentiles... The Heavenly Father only acknowledges Jesus Christ as he Son during the baptism of Jesus Christ... John the Baptist the miracle man from the family of Aaron from the line of the High Priest was not acknowledged...but John was prepared before it happened...he knew it... Jesus is preach as a Savior...because he died for the forgiveness of our sins...when we believe in him we are not in our sins...this is the simple truth about the Gospel ...when the time comes do not be afraid the one who will judge everyone according to his faith in Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ himself..the one who has die for the forgiveness of our sins...Amen... Jesus is honor to saved everyone who believes in him.. more for him and less for the Devil... this is one of the Goals of his mission...the Goal of the Gospel is that the Devil cannot take none of Jesus Christ sheep..as long as they believe in him. The devil can take only those who have refused to believe Jesus Christ till the end the last moment before their death... A better way is to inquire if someone has refused to believe in Jesus Christ...if he say no ...then we may follow with..do you believe in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.. if he says yes...then he has not denied Jesus Christ...the rest are important but are not Salvation issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 3, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,972 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said: Q: How do you think people before the Cross were saved ( had their sins paid for)? ***** I am not quite sure who is included in the "people " but I answer your question as I see fit to include the whole world... Because of Adam's fall there was only one Inheritance for man and that was not Heaven which we may call it "the ascending Inheritance", the Heavenly one which came to man with Jesus Christ... The only Inheritance for man was the descending Inheritance...in the earth, the place of the death, "Sheol" or "Hades" in the Greek.. This was the DEFAULT Inheritance for everyone...whether they died in their sins or not... There was not forgiveness of sins on earth till the Covenant of Sinai. Till that time if God wanted to forgive someone is another matter...but there was nothing for a man could do to atone for his sin... Abel the first man to died, a righteous man, a man who never sin...who died pure...he was not brought to God right after his death... He was taken to the place of the dead...in Sheol...or Hades as it was called by the Greeks who believed in life after death... If Abel did not escape the DEFAULT Inheritance for man ...not anyone else would... Noah also did not escape the DEFAULT Inheritance for man after death...when he died he went in the same place with the people he had Judge.. After the flood the people seek God but the could not find him...even they said to them selves...we will go to him ...we will built a tower till we find him..or till we find the way to Heaven... God stayed away from mankind till Abraham... but he did not forbit people to believe in him and worship him as their God... God made Abraham a Patriarch and he set him apart from the world and he made him a righteous man by faith..for Life. Abraham as a righteous man he does not need forgiveness of sins.. . In the Covenant of Circumcision God promise to Abraham that he will take his offspring as a Nation for himself...and he will be their God to them and not to the rest of the world... The offspring of Abraham inherit his righteousness in the Covenant of Circumcision...they were born in the righteousness of Abraham and died in the righteousness of Abraham...nothing was counted against them...they had the inherited righteousness of Abraham... When they died they were gathered to Abraham. God had set Abraham and his offspring apart of the rest of the world in life and in death...he had given Abraham his own place in the earth...outside Sheol... Till the Covenant of Sinai and the ten commandments...Abraham did not loose none of his children. With the Covenant of Sinai God became their Lord and started to Judge them accordingly...now we begin to have the lost sheep of Israel... Because even thought God with the Law he gave them the Priest and the "temple, the tent of the temple " to do the atonements for their sins and purified themselves... Not all sins were forgiven... God also gave them their religious calendar... The Israelites and those adapted by them they had to had the righteousness of the Law to be gathered to Abraham... That's why I said the beginning of the lost sheep of Israel... Abraham and his seed had his righteousness till the Law when began to have the righteousness of the law... But they still gathered to Abraham at death... That's where Jesus went right after the his death on the Cross...that's where John the Baptist a man without sin went after his death to wait for the Jesus Christ to come to give them Life and to put them under his blood and his righteousness...Jesus became the Patriarch of Abraham and all his seed who were with him because they all believed in Jesus Christ...and inherited Heaven together with him... Being by faith under his blood...they also had to believe in him that he died for the forgiveness of their sins. Because like us they also needed to be made perfect in Jesus Christ as Hebrews in chapter 11: and Also Paul said and all the disciples also... Jesus said Abraham had seen this day and he was waiting for him... As believers in Jesus Christ we are always secured in him , not only here on earth but also in Heaven...for all eternity...living without fear the rest of our lives not only here on earth but for all eternity in Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterlag Posted October 3, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 115 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 12 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said: "Call"...a word in the Bible used at least three different ways. Like you are saying there is the gospel "call" that goes out into the world, but only few will respond " ....for many are called, but few chosen". Then you have those who are "called to be saints ( saints typify all true believers). But then there is the third "call" that is widely misunderstood or misused. For all the verses that I have seen pertaining to a person who "calls" on the name of the Lord, there is an indication that that person is already saved. True believers "call" on or beseech the Lord daily in prayer and supplication. So what about verses like Romans 10:13, which appears to teach that anyone who "calls out" to God can then be saved? What do think? Romans 10:9-10 which is the same context that verse 13 is continuing to state is the only thing I have ever been taught to get saved. Did I understand the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterlag Posted October 3, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 115 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 19 hours ago, Don19 said: It's specific individuals who are elected to salvation. Jesus calls His sheep by name. Just read Romans 9:11-24. Jesus will give eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him (John 17:2, 17:9). I don't see what you see in Romans 9 that appears to be talking about what occurred in the Old Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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