The Bethel False Prophets

[NotAllThere]

5 minutes ago, Paul James said:

They are a non-Christian cult, and their leaders are not born again, and they are leading their followers on the path to hell.  Satan is very crafty.  He is using something almost believable, and attractive, lots of fun and excitement as well as false promises of blessing, prosperity, and miraculous experiences to direct people away from sound Biblical doctrine towards the broad road to destruction.

Many are called. Few are chosen. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

One of the biggest problems with modern day charismatics is a lack of understanding that where the real thing is, there are also counterfeits. And the counterfeits may outnumber the real thing.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by NotAllThere

[Paul James]

2 minutes ago, NotAllThere said:

Many are called. Few are chosen. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

One of the biggest problems with modern day charismatics is a lack of understanding that where the real thing is, there are also counterfeits. And the counterfeits may outnumber the real thing.

 

This is because there is a general tendency to put trust in feelings and experiences, rather in the written text of the Scriptures.  When I was directly involved in the Pentecostal movement in the first 12 years of my Christian life, it was normal to hear people say that we should not trust in the dead letter of the written Scriptures and to listen for the voice of God to give us revelation and experiences in "the higher spiritual life".   What has evolved is a quest for deeper spirituality, which goes into the realm of New Age mysticism and the occult.

[NotAllThere]

17 minutes ago, Paul James said:

This is because there is a general tendency to put trust in feelings and experiences, rather in the written text of the Scriptures.  When I was directly involved in the Pentecostal movement in the first 12 years of my Christian life, it was normal to hear people say that we should not trust in the dead letter of the written Scriptures and to listen for the voice of God to give us revelation and experiences in "the higher spiritual life".   What has evolved is a quest for deeper spirituality, which goes into the realm of New Age mysticism and the occult.

Just to say that is not the Pentacostal tradition that I went into (from an agnostic/atheistic background age 15), nor what my wife went into (independently from a buddist background age 18). The Bible is a gift from God. The scriptures tell us all we need to know about how to live and be, and how God interacts with His creation. And what happens next. And that He wins in the end. The Holy Spirit is a helper and comforter who guides us in daily life in harmony with the scriptures.

But that was in the late 80s. Things changed after that. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by NotAllThere

[Ozarkbound]

Biblical prophesies were for the benefit of Israel and the Church.

The prophesies all pointed to Christ. 

 

[Paul James]

30 minutes ago, NotAllThere said:

Just to say that is not the Pentacostal tradition that I went into (from an agnostic/atheistic background age 15), nor what my wife went into (independently from a buddist background age 18). The Bible is a gift from God. The scriptures tell us all we need to know about how to live and be, and how God interacts with His creation. And what happens next. And that He wins in the end. The Holy Spirit is a helper and comforter who guides us in daily life in harmony with the scriptures.

But that was in the late 80s. Things changed after that. 

I was discipled during the 1970s by a Pentecostal pastor whose background was the Methodist Holiness movement.   He taught that if a person was to be used in the gifts of the Spirit, one had to be a person of the Word and of prayer.   His ministry was not attractive to other Pentecostals in the city because he was adamant concerning personal holiness and very strict about it.  He had no time for the mystical stuff, and totally opposed to "oneness" (Modalist) Pentecostalism.  Over the years since then, after going through times of storm and stress in my own life, and after rejecting my Charismatic mentors, his discipleship teaching came back to me when none of the others stood the test of time.

[Tristen]

10 hours ago, NotAllThere said:

I'm from a pentecostal background; certainly not a cessationist. But from my first encounters with Bethel and Bill Johnson, I've been repelled. I considered them well beyond the pale before all of this shenanigans. 

Hi NAT,

I appreciate your perspective. I personally have no experience with Bethel whatsoever. And I'm not inclined to investigate. I'm neither defending them, nor advocating for them. My primary concern is with the inclination of many Christians to think it is their God-given job to go around publicly validating or invalidating putative Christian ministers and/or ministries. In that sense, I am uneasy about the prospect of Christians being deceived into working in league with “the accuser of our brethren” (Revelation 12:10).

I therefore encourage pause and caution before presuming to speak against something that may very-well be a work of God. And if we do decide that an error needs to be exposed, we should endeavour to have a solid position with quality supporting arguments.

 

[Tristen]

6 hours ago, Paul James said:

The whole basis for prophecy involving American politics is false and unBiblical.  Nothing like that is found in the New Testament.  All I have done is to compare the actual video footage of actual Bethel activities with the New Testament and found that there is no comparison at all.   Absolutely none of the Apostles or other New Testament Christians behaved like those people which causes me to see that the Bethel people have ignored the Bible and done their own thing.   Furthermore, concerning New Testament prophecy, any believer, including me, has the total right to evaluate according to the written New Testament.  So, I am not falsely accusing anyone.  I'm just a guy who reads the Bible.

Hey Paul,

You said, “The whole basis for prophecy involving American politics is false and unBiblical. Nothing like that is found in the New Testament. … Absolutely none of the Apostles or other New Testament Christians behaved like those people which causes me to see that the Bethel people have ignored the Bible and done their own thing”

Read your above statement and imagine you were me. Ask yourself, “What would any of his mean?” to someone who has absolutely no experience or knowledge of Bethel. Hint: It means nothing to me. It could just mean you have a simple disagreement over doctrine, or you don't like something about how they practice worship – or it could mean something more serious. How would I know? You've given me nothing of substance by which I can evaluate your claims. So my inclination is to default to you presuming the right to stand as judge over Christian ministries. And that would be cause for legitimate concern.

 

“All I have done is to compare the actual video footage of actual Bethel activities with the New Testament and found that there is no comparison at all”

That is not an argument you have provided here. Your OP was about comparing supposed prophecy to the US election results.

 

“Furthermore, concerning New Testament prophecy, any believer, including me, has the total right to evaluate according to the written New Testament”

And if you post your 'evaluation' in a forum, others on the forum have the "total right" to scrutinise (i.e. “evaluate”) your claims and methodology.

 

“So, I am not falsely accusing anyone”

And I am not “accusing” you of “falsely accusing anyone”.

 

“I'm just a guy who reads the Bible”

I'm glad you are “a guy who reads the Bible”. I encourage you to take my concerns to God – i.e. 'just in case' you are being overly distracted away from your God-given destiny.

 

[Paul James]

35 minutes ago, Tristen said:

Hey Paul,

You said, “The whole basis for prophecy involving American politics is false and unBiblical. Nothing like that is found in the New Testament. … Absolutely none of the Apostles or other New Testament Christians behaved like those people which causes me to see that the Bethel people have ignored the Bible and done their own thing”

Read your above statement and imagine you were me. Ask yourself, “What would any of his mean?” to someone who has absolutely no experience or knowledge of Bethel. Hint: It means nothing to me. It could just mean you have a simple disagreement over doctrine, or you don't like something about how they practice worship – or it could mean something more serious. How would I know? You've given me nothing of substance by which I can evaluate your claims. So my inclination is to default to you presuming the right to stand as judge over Christian ministries. And that would be cause for legitimate concern.

 

“All I have done is to compare the actual video footage of actual Bethel activities with the New Testament and found that there is no comparison at all”

That is not an argument you have provided here. Your OP was about comparing supposed prophecy to the US election results.

 

“Furthermore, concerning New Testament prophecy, any believer, including me, has the total right to evaluate according to the written New Testament”

And if you post your 'evaluation' in a forum, others on the forum have the "total right" to scrutinise (i.e. “evaluate”) your claims and methodology.

 

“So, I am not falsely accusing anyone”

And I am not “accusing” you of “falsely accusing anyone”.

 

“I'm just a guy who reads the Bible”

I'm glad you are “a guy who reads the Bible”. I encourage you to take my concerns to God – i.e. 'just in case' you are being overly distracted away from your God-given destiny.

 

I can understand that what I have said about Bethel wouldn't make any sense to you right now, but you might come into contact with it in the future, and if you were to be tempted to think that this is quite an exciting type of Christianity, you might remember that some old buzzard made comments about it, and that might make you look more closely into it to see if it is Biblical;  and when you discover that it is a dangerous cult and turn your back on it, then you have saved yourself from getting hooked up with spirits that may not be good for you.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Paul James

[Ozarkbound]

17 hours ago, Tristen said:

There are "videos on Youtube" defaming pretty-much every well-known Christian ministry. That's the problem. The Bible labels Satan as slanderer and the accuser of believers. Yet so many Christians fall into the trap of thinking it is our job to go around casting judgement on ministers and ministries. I am more cautious because I know I do not have all the information. And I'd hate to think I've spoken against a work of God simply because I am personally ignorant of God's purpose in that work.

Again, I have no opinion about "Bethel" because I literally know nothing about them (apart from the rumours you have provided in this thread).

You've spoken here against Bethel - and you may very well be correct in your charges. Nevertheless, all you've provided me in the OP is nebulous accusations of failed prophecy. Based on the information provided, I demonstrated your accusations to be premature.

 

I had never heard of Bethel either, but after seeing this thread I did some research. Now I have a better understanding of why Bethel is to be avoided.

The first red flag went up for me when I saw that their Pastor Bill Johnson  was a proponent of the Toronto blessing.

Johnson is also a proponent of the prosperity gospel which is centered on what God can do for me instead of what I can do for God. 

There is plenty of information available. I found the video on youtube about the Glory Cloud especially enlightening.

[GandalfTheWise]

I've been a Christian for about 45 years now, and have spent a lot of time (meaning years each) in a wide variety of  ministries and churches with a wide range of view points on various matters and I've known a lot of Christians with a wide range of views on things.  There's one thing that is pretty common in a lot of groups but I hardly ever hear anyone talk about it except to criticize it in others.   I've seen this in many forms over decades and pretty much fell head over heels for it myself at various times in different ways.

Many Christians make an idol of their zeal for certain things.   They then become unbalanced because their zeal takes them in unhealthy directions.  Usually God will spiritual thump them upside the head in some way to get their attention and restore balance, but some will go for quite awhile before they notice it.  Many Christians go through phases where they believe their sincerity and zeal and passion gives them a pass to do stupid things that are obvious to other Christians watching them.

Many charismatics and pentecostals (two distinct groups) are zealous to see God do miracles like they read about in the Bible.  They want to see mass revivals.  They want see people healed.   They want to see God do tangible things in people's lives.   They want to see people become Christians.  This is not a personal glory seeking thing but true sincerity to see individual Christians grow and the church grow and God be glorified.  As this zeal becomes an idol, it can lead to questionable practices and behavior.  They gravitate toward others Christians who feel the same.   At its worst, they'll imagine God is doing things that He is not.

Some Christians make an idol of zeal for polemics (which is defending the gospel and church against wolves and false teachers).   They are sincere about preventing spiritual error and problems.  They are sincere about exposing darkness.  However, as zeal for this becomes an idol, they start to imagine problems where none exist. They start to assume the worst about individual Christians or ministries or churches with minimal evidence and blind acceptance of accusations.  They start to be consumed with looking for what other Christians are doing wrong to condemn them and avoid them rather than looking for what they are doing right to learn from.  They gravitate toward other Christians who feel the same.  At its worst, they come to believe they are among the chosen few still true to God and that it is more important to expose error than build relationships with other Christians.

I've often seen zeal for particular things slowly become an idol for many Christians.  Some have a zeal for true doctrine and end up spending all their time arguing and unable to in good conscience fellowship with other Christians over particular matters.   Some will develop a zeal for a particular ministry that becomes an idol to them over time.  Some will develop a zeal for political activity that becomes an idol.  It's not that zeal is a bad thing.    It's when our sincerity, zeal, and good motives prevent us from seeing that we have become unbalanced spiritually and are becoming a disruption to other Christians.  Ultimately, it's when something we are doing for God becomes more important to us than knowing God Himself.