The Bethel False Prophets

[Ozarkbound]

30 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I've been a Christian for about 45 years now, and have spent a lot of time (meaning years each) in a wide variety of  ministries and churches with a wide range of view points on various matters and I've known a lot of Christians with a wide range of views on things.  There's one thing that is pretty common in a lot of groups but I hardly ever hear anyone talk about it except to criticize it in others.   I've seen this in many forms over decades and pretty much fell head over heels for it myself at various times in different ways.

Many Christians make an idol of their zeal for certain things.   They then become unbalanced because their zeal takes them in unhealthy directions.  Usually God will spiritual thump them upside the head in some way to get their attention and restore balance, but some will go for quite awhile before they notice it.  Many Christians go through phases where they believe their sincerity and zeal and passion gives them a pass to do stupid things that are obvious to other Christians watching them.

Many charismatics and pentecostals (two distinct groups) are zealous to see God do miracles like they read about in the Bible.  They want to see mass revivals.  They want see people healed.   They want to see God do tangible things in people's lives.   They want to see people become Christians.  This is not a personal glory seeking thing but true sincerity to see individual Christians grow and the church grow and God be glorified.  As this zeal becomes an idol, it can lead to questionable practices and behavior.  They gravitate toward others Christians who feel the same.   At its worst, they'll imagine God is doing things that He is not.

Some Christians make an idol of zeal for polemics (which is defending the gospel and church against wolves and false teachers).   They are sincere about preventing spiritual error and problems.  They are sincere about exposing darkness.  However, as zeal for this becomes an idol, they start to imagine problems where none exist. They start to assume the worst about individual Christians or ministries or churches with minimal evidence and blind acceptance of accusations.  They start to be consumed with looking for what other Christians are doing wrong to condemn them and avoid them rather than looking for what they are doing right to learn from.  They gravitate toward other Christians who feel the same.  At its worst, they come to believe they are among the chosen few still true to God and that it is more important to expose error than build relationships with other Christians.

I've often seen zeal for particular things slowly become an idol for many Christians.  Some have a zeal for true doctrine and end up spending all their time arguing and unable to in good conscience fellowship with other Christians over particular matters.   Some will develop a zeal for a particular ministry that becomes an idol to them over time.  Some will develop a zeal for political activity that becomes an idol.  It's not that zeal is a bad thing.    It's when our sincerity, zeal, and good motives prevent us from seeing that we have become unbalanced spiritually and are becoming a disruption to other Christians.  Ultimately, it's when something we are doing for God becomes more important to us than knowing God Himself.

 

Excellent post.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I've been a Christian for about 45 years now, and have spent a lot of time (meaning years each) in a wide variety of  ministries and churches with a wide range of view points on various matters and I've known a lot of Christians with a wide range of views on things.  There's one thing that is pretty common in a lot of groups but I hardly ever hear anyone talk about it except to criticize it in others.   I've seen this in many forms over decades and pretty much fell head over heels for it myself at various times in different ways.

Many Christians make an idol of their zeal for certain things.   They then become unbalanced because their zeal takes them in unhealthy directions.  Usually God will spiritual thump them upside the head in some way to get their attention and restore balance, but some will go for quite awhile before they notice it.  Many Christians go through phases where they believe their sincerity and zeal and passion gives them a pass to do stupid things that are obvious to other Christians watching them.

Many charismatics and pentecostals (two distinct groups) are zealous to see God do miracles like they read about in the Bible.  They want to see mass revivals.  They want see people healed.   They want to see God do tangible things in people's lives.   They want to see people become Christians.  This is not a personal glory seeking thing but true sincerity to see individual Christians grow and the church grow and God be glorified.  As this zeal becomes an idol, it can lead to questionable practices and behavior.  They gravitate toward others Christians who feel the same.   At its worst, they'll imagine God is doing things that He is not.

Some Christians make an idol of zeal for polemics (which is defending the gospel and church against wolves and false teachers).   They are sincere about preventing spiritual error and problems.  They are sincere about exposing darkness.  However, as zeal for this becomes an idol, they start to imagine problems where none exist. They start to assume the worst about individual Christians or ministries or churches with minimal evidence and blind acceptance of accusations.  They start to be consumed with looking for what other Christians are doing wrong to condemn them and avoid them rather than looking for what they are doing right to learn from.  They gravitate toward other Christians who feel the same.  At its worst, they come to believe they are among the chosen few still true to God and that it is more important to expose error than build relationships with other Christians.

I've often seen zeal for particular things slowly become an idol for many Christians.  Some have a zeal for true doctrine and end up spending all their time arguing and unable to in good conscience fellowship with other Christians over particular matters.   Some will develop a zeal for a particular ministry that becomes an idol to them over time.  Some will develop a zeal for political activity that becomes an idol.  It's not that zeal is a bad thing.    It's when our sincerity, zeal, and good motives prevent us from seeing that we have become unbalanced spiritually and are becoming a disruption to other Christians.  Ultimately, it's when something we are doing for God becomes more important to us than knowing God Himself.

I noticed you had returned from adventures, Gandalf. Welcome back.

Yes, excessive zeal becomes a work of the flesh. I've been thinking about the difference between hype and holiness. As I ponder the disappointment with Jerusalem that Jesus expressed during His time on earth, I have an inkling He might be disappointed with a few things in our time, not excluding my stumblings.  

Mat 23:37-38  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!  (38)  See! Your house is left to you desolate;

[Tristen]

3 hours ago, Paul James said:

I can understand that what I have said about Bethel wouldn't make any sense to you right now, but you might come into contact with it in the future, and if you were to be tempted to think that this is quite an exciting type of Christianity, you might remember that some old buzzard made comments about it, and that might make you look more closely into it to see if it is Biblical;  and when you discover that it is a dangerous cult and turn your back on it, then you have saved yourself from getting hooked up with spirits that may not be good for you.

Ok - I appreciate your warning.

Might I respectfully suggest you tighten up your arguments? Arguments that criticise potential ministries should be air-tight - otherwise someone might get the impression that your criticism is merely an expression of frivolous disagreement.

 

[Tristen]

2 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

I had never heard of Bethel either, but after seeing this thread I did some research. Now I have a better understanding of why Bethel is to be avoided.

The first red flag went up for me when I saw that their Pastor Bill Johnson  was a proponent of the Toronto blessing.

Johnson is also a proponent of the prosperity gospel which is centered on what God can do for me instead of what I can do for God. 

There is plenty of information available. I found the video on youtube about the Glory Cloud especially enlightening.

Hello Ozarkbound,

I'm not inclined to research Bethel because 1) I have no contact with them, and 2) that wasn't the point of me engaging in this discussion.

My concern is with the tendency of many Christians to see their role in the body of Christ as judges over other ministers and ministries. Obviously, if there is some overt heresy, then it should be exposed in the light of God's Word. But otherwise, we should be more cautious, and avoid the risk of speaking against God - simply because we don't understand how God is working in a situation that is none of our business anyway.

 

[Ozarkbound]

42 minutes ago, Tristen said:

Hello Ozarkbound,

I'm not inclined to research Bethel because 1) I have no contact with them, and 2) that wasn't the point of me engaging in this discussion.

My concern is with the tendency of many Christians to see their role in the body of Christ as judges over other ministers and ministries. Obviously, if there is some overt heresy, then it should be exposed in the light of God's Word. But otherwise, we should be more cautious, and avoid the risk of speaking against God - simply because we don't understand how God is working in a situation that is none of our business anyway.

 

No one on this thread has spoken against God.  If someone is spreading a false gospel, as saints it is certainly our business.

Aren't we told to test the spirits? If you are not interested in knowing about Bethel, that is cool with me. I myself want to put on the full armor of God by having knowledge of as much as I can. How do I know that someday my research may not come in handy when dealing with someone who has been hurt by this false teaching?

I did not look into Bethel as a way to judge, but as a way to gain knowledge. I had no preconceived opinions one way or the other, just a natural curiosity. If you chose to not know about a certain ministry, I respect your decision.

You say that if there is some overt heresy, it should be exposed in the light of God's word. Overt heresy is present in the teaching of Bill Johnson. But you wouldn't know that because you spent time criticizing those of us who took the time to find out for ourselves instead of finding out for yourself.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Ozarkbound

[Tristen]

1 hour ago, Ozarkbound said:

No one on this thread has spoken against God. What are you talking about? If someone is spreading a false gospel, as saints it is certainly our business.

Aren't we told to test the spirits? If you are not interested in knowing about Bethel, that is cool with me. I myself want to put on the full armor of God by having knowledge of as much as I can. How do I know that someday my research may not come in handy when dealing with someone who has been hurt by this false teaching?

I did not look into Bethel as a way to judge, but as a way to gain knowledge. I had no preconceived opinions one way or the other, just a natural curiosity. If you chose to not know about a certain ministry, I respect your decision.

You say that if there is some overt heresy, it should be exposed in the light of God's word. Overt heresy is present in the teaching of Bill Johnson. But you wouldn't know that because you spent time criticizing those of us who took the time to find out for ourselves instead of finding out for yourself.

Hi again,

You said, “No one on this thread has spoken against God. What are you talking about?”

I am “talking about” judging other potential Christians without providing sufficient cause or support for your position. I don't know anything about Bethel or “Bill Johnson”, and all I've heard throughout this thread are empty, Unsupported Assertions. Across the internet there are accusations against pretty-much every well-known minister and ministry. As far as I can tell, this could be just another example of Christians thinking they have the right to judge and invalidate those who disagree with them.

Many here have “spoken against” “Bethel” and/or “Bill Johnson” - which I gather characterise themselves as Christians. Maybe God is working through them in a manner that you don't understand, or maybe they are a cult. I have no reason to prefer either conclusion based on the provided arguments so far. So in my mind, there remains a risk that you are speaking “against” a work of God.

 

“If someone is spreading a false gospel, as saints it is certainly our business”

Is there a “false gospel” being spread? If so, make the case. It's not good enough to find a forum and make empty insinuations. I could do that about you – i.e. spray the internet with empty accusations about your motives and your “false gospel” - all day long.

 

“Aren't we told to test the spirits? If you are not interested in knowing about Bethel, that is cool with me. I myself want to put on the full armor of God by having knowledge of as much as I can. How do I know that someday my research may not come in handy when dealing with someone who has been hurt by this false teaching?”

So you have an exhaustive analysis of every well-known Christian minister and ministry across the planet? If not, your insinuations that I lack “the full armor of God” by not investigating this one ministry are logically irrelevant.

And what “false teaching” are you referring to? See how you just throw that accusation out there without any supporting argument. If we are going to expose “false teaching”, we have to do better than that.

 

“I did not look into Bethel as a way to judge, but as a way to gain knowledge”

Ok – but I had a different reason for engaging in the conversation.

 

“You say that if there is some overt heresy, it should be exposed in the light of God's word. Overt heresy is present in the teaching of Bill Johnson”

And yet again – another empty Unsupported Assertion.

If I said the same about you, wouldn't you expect more – i.e. something of actual rational substance to defend yourself against?

 

“But you wouldn't know that because you spent time criticizing those of us who took the time to find out for ourselves instead of finding out for yourself”

In this thread I have criticised two things; 1) the tendency of many Christians to presume the right to stand as judge over other Christians, and 2) the poor quality of arguments representing accusations against other putative believers.

The fact that we are ready to denigrate fellow Christians without proper cause is disconcerting; and may indicate a lack of the appropriate fear of God.

 

[Ozarkbound]

6 minutes ago, Tristen said:

Hi again,

You said, “No one on this thread has spoken against God. What are you talking about?”

I am “talking about” judging other potential Christians without providing sufficient cause or support for your position. I don't know anything about Bethel or “Bill Johnson”, and all I've heard throughout this thread are empty, Unsupported Assertions. Across the internet there are accusations against pretty-much every well-known minister and ministry. As far as I can tell, this could be just another example of Christians thinking they have the right to judge and invalidate those who disagree with them.

Many here have “spoken against” “Bethel” and/or “Bill Johnson” - which I gather characterise themselves as Christians. Maybe God is working through them in a manner that you don't understand, or maybe they are a cult. I have no reason to prefer either conclusion based on the provided arguments so far. So in my mind, there remains a risk that you are speaking “against” a work of God.

 

“If someone is spreading a false gospel, as saints it is certainly our business”

Is there a “false gospel” being spread? If so, make the case. It's not good enough to find a forum and make empty insinuations. I could do that about you – i.e. spray the internet with empty accusations about your motives and your “false gospel” - all day long.

 

“Aren't we told to test the spirits? If you are not interested in knowing about Bethel, that is cool with me. I myself want to put on the full armor of God by having knowledge of as much as I can. How do I know that someday my research may not come in handy when dealing with someone who has been hurt by this false teaching?”

So you have an exhaustive analysis of every well-known Christian minister and ministry across the planet? If not, your insinuations that I lack “the full armor of God” by not investigating this one ministry are logically irrelevant.

And what “false teaching” are you referring to? See how you just throw that accusation out there without any supporting argument. If we are going to expose “false teaching”, we have to do better than that.

 

“I did not look into Bethel as a way to judge, but as a way to gain knowledge”

Ok – but I had a different reason for engaging in the conversation.

 

“You say that if there is some overt heresy, it should be exposed in the light of God's word. Overt heresy is present in the teaching of Bill Johnson”

And yet again – another empty Unsupported Assertion.

If I said the same about you, wouldn't you expect more – i.e. something of actual rational substance to defend yourself against?

 

“But you wouldn't know that because you spent time criticizing those of us who took the time to find out for ourselves instead of finding out for yourself”

In this thread I have criticised two things; 1) the tendency of many Christians to presume the right to stand as judge over other Christians, and 2) the poor quality of arguments representing accusations against other putative believers.

The fact that we are ready to denigrate fellow Christians without proper cause is disconcerting; and may indicate a lack of the appropriate fear of God.

 

In a previous post I said that Bill Johnson was a proponent of the prosperity gospel and of the Toronto Blessing. Both things are heresy.

I also spoke of a youtube video that you are free to watch. I gave the search criteria needed to view the video. It is not an accusatory video, but a video of part of the church service.

You refuse to look at the evidence presented to you, then falsely accuse others of not providing evidence.

You want to be ignorant of what this movement is about while accusing your brethren of dishonest motives. You are judging us. You are denigrating posters on this thread for speaking a truth you refuse to investigate, Pot, Kettle, Black.

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, Tristen said:

Ok - I appreciate your warning.

Might I respectfully suggest you tighten up your arguments? Arguments that criticise potential ministries should be air-tight - otherwise someone might get the impression that your criticism is merely an expression of frivolous disagreement.

 

All you have to do is to view video clips of what goes on in Bethel meetings, and hear Bill Johnson's teaching, and then compare these with the New Testament, thereby making up your own mind about whether the church is Biblical or not.

[Tristen]

2 hours ago, Ozarkbound said:

In a previous post I said that Bill Johnson was a proponent of the prosperity gospel and of the Toronto Blessing. Both things are heresy.

I also spoke of a youtube video that you are free to watch. I gave the search criteria needed to view the video. It is not an accusatory video, but a video of part of the church service.

You refuse to look at the evidence presented to you, then falsely accuse others of not providing evidence.

You want to be ignorant of what this movement is about while accusing your brethren of dishonest motives. You are judging us. You are denigrating posters on this thread for speaking a truth you refuse to investigate, Pot, Kettle, Black.

“In a previous post I said that Bill Johnson was a proponent of the prosperity gospel and of the Toronto Blessing. Both things are heresy”

These are not arguments. These are unqualified accusations.

 

“I also spoke of a youtube video that you are free to watch”

And I informed you that specific accusations against specific ministers was never the reason for my participation in this discussion.

 

“You refuse to look at the evidence presented to you, then falsely accuse others of not providing evidence”

That's not how a discussion works. You don't get to make a claim, then point me to someone else after I dare scrutinise your claim. That's lazy.

My criticism (no 'accusation' was made) of the many Unsupported Assertions presented on this thread is entirely justified.

 

“You want to be ignorant of what this movement is about while accusing your brethren of dishonest motives”

It is disingenuous of you to characterise my position as desiring “to be ignorant” of anything.

By continuous use of the word “accuse”, you are trying to personalise the discussion. That is a “dishonest” strategy.

The world tries to shut down opposing arguments through contentious, emotive, dishonest strategies. Since you have thus chosen to escalate this conversation, you can expect my responses to hold you to account for every fallacious statement you make.

In reality, I have not “accused” anyone of anything. I have expressed concern for certain judgemental Christian tendencies, and criticised poor quality arguments.

 

“You are judging us”

No I'm not. I am

“In a previous post I said that Bill Johnson was a proponent of the prosperity gospel and of the Toronto Blessing. Both things are heresy”

These are not arguments. These are unqualified accusations.

 

“I also spoke of a youtube video that you are free to watch”

And I informed you that specific accusations against specific ministers was never the reason for my participation in this discussion.

 

“You refuse to look at the evidence presented to you, then falsely accuse others of not providing evidence”

That's not how a discussion works. You don't get to make a claim, then point me to someone else after I dare scrutinise your claim. That's lazy.

My criticism of the many Unsupported Assertions on this thread is justified.

 

“You want to be ignorant of what this movement is about while accusing your brethren of dishonest motives”

It is disingenuous of you to characterise my position as desiring “to be ignorant” of anything.

By continuous use of the word “accuse”, you are trying to personalise the discussion. That is a “dishonest” strategy.

The world tries to shut down opposing arguments through contentious, emotive, dishonest strategies. Since you have thus chosen to escalate this conversation, you can expect my responses to hold you to account for every fallacious statement you make.

In reality, I have not “accused” anyone of anything. I have expressed concern for certain judgemental Christian tendencies, and criticised poor quality arguments.

 

“You are judging us”

No I'm not. I am testing your claims and arguments as scripture demands (as you earlier pointed out).

 

“You are denigrating posters on this thread for speaking a truth you refuse to investigate, Pot, Kettle, Black”

This is yet another lie. I have not personally denigrated anyone on this thread. I have only addressed claims and their associated arguments.

 

[Tristen]

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

All you have to do is to view video clips of what goes on in Bethel meetings, and hear Bill Johnson's teaching, and then compare these with the New Testament, thereby making up your own mind about whether the church is Biblical or not.

Maybe one day I will have a reason to do so investigate them for myself.

In the meantime;

1 – I did not engage in this conversation to learn about a ministry I've never heard of.

2 – It's intellectually lazy to make a claim, then send us to another source when we dare question your claim. And,

3 – This is your thread. You could have made it solid from the outset. Instead, you just expected everyone to take your claims at your word. Then doubled down for a time after being challenged.