Catholics and Salvation

[Fiosh]

Fiosh...I sound like a three year old...your words are bolded:

Well it is good to see that at least you are consistent, my friend.

I ask I reasonable question in an attempt to have a civilized discussion....you go off on some tirade.Calm now?

[halifaxchristian]

Fiosh...I sound like a three year old...your words are bolded:

Well it is good to see that at least you are consistent, my friend.

I ask I reasonable question in an attempt to have a civilized discussion....you go off on some tirade.Calm now?

[Smalcald]

We believe that baptism is something that God does for us, not that we do for God, thus we baptize young and old, including infants.

Additionally infants can have faith, the unborn child John jumped for joy in his mother's womb at the sight of the pregnant Mary, we are told to go and baptize all nations not by any specific age, Jesus Himself said that the little Children were to come to Him, and babies need what baptism offers, they are born with sin. We don't control the Holy Spirit, we don't decide that we can have faith, it is created for us by the Holy Spirit.

I do understand why people who don't baptize infants don't, but it is not a clear scriptural argument either way.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Smalcald

[Nanners]

I want everyone on this board to know this:

Catholics ADMITTEDLY, both by individuals on this board, and by official CHURCH CANONS AND COUNCILS, believe that salvation DOES NOT come from FAITH ONLY IN CHRIST JESUS...BUT that WORKS has a part in our own SALVATION.

This is a fact that the other side does not even deny...and, thus, my point in starting this thread in the first place.  I wish to fully PORTRAY and BRING TO LIGHT this IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS.

Catholics can believe what they wish...God gave us all freewill.

But there is no longer any point in any of us on this board arguing the essential relationship between Catholics and Protestants if we can all agree on this matter.

If we can agree on this matter, as stated...the end result is...THE ECUMENICAL MOVEMENT BETWEEN PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT CONTINUE...and it is a deception to believe that it can and should.

Agreed, stray bullet???  If so...I will not even bother debating over other differences between the two faiths...because this matter alone is enough to dispell any other harmonies we may share.

And that...is the whole point.  Understood?

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"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANETHMA."-Council of Trent, Canon 12

"If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the increase, LET HIM BE ANETHMA."-Council of Trent, Canon 33

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Justification is defined by the RCC as: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" (Rom 3:22 cf. 6:3-4) Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctifiction and renewal of the interior man.

Through the power of the HS we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself. Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4

The first work of the grace of the HS is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Mt 4:17.

Justification detaches man from sin and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful inititative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God- frees him from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

Justification is also the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Chris. Righteousness here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.

Justification is confered in baptism, the sacrament of fiath. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just (righteous) by the power of his mercy. Rom 3:21-26

Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent.

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight. Council of Trent: DS 1525 (Denziger)

Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." St. Augustine, In Jo ev. 72, 3: PL 35,1823

He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," (Cf. Rom 7:22, Eph. 3:16) justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. (Rom 6:19, 22)

Evangelical scholar Alister McGrath writes at the conclusion of his doctoral dissertation IUSTITIA DEI: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification (Cambridge Univ Press, 1986), Volume 1, Chapter 5, Section 19 --

"The significance of the Protestant distinction between -iustificatio- and -regeneratio- is that a FUNDAMENTAL DISCONTINUITY has been introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EXISTED BEFORHowever, it will be clear that the medieval period was astonishingly FAITHFUL to the teaching of Augustine on the question of the nature of justification, WHERE THE REFORMERS DEPARTED FROM IT

The essential feature of the Reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between JUSTIFICATION and REGENERATION. Although it must be emphasised that this distinction is purely notional, in that it is impossible to separate the two within the context of the -ordo salutis- [the order of salvation], the essential point is that a notional distinction is made WHERE NONE HAD BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED BEFORE IN THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

"A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EVER EXISTED, OR EVER BEEN CONTEMPLATED, BEFORE [my emphasis]. The Reformation understanding of the NATURE of justification -- as opposed to its mode -- must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological NOVUM."

According to this Christ decieved all Christians about salvation till the 16th Century.

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Justification is grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Salvation is instantaneous.  It is a gift; therefore, it must be received.  Saved individuals work from the cross, not to the cross.  Fruit is the result of being saved: for it is written, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."

Question: What is righteousness?

Proverbs 11:4 KJV

(4)  Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from d.eath.

Answer:

a. Doing good works unto salvation

b. Keeping the Ten Commandments

c. The Lord Jesus Christ

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Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument  we often seem to be arguing two sides to the same coin, or maybe I am simply sweeping two much theology under the rug?

It seems to me that both Catholic and Protestant views agree on some central things here, but I would like correction about my understanding if it is not correct, I am really trying to understand and not to argue a point.

1.) Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

2.) If faith is real, works will follow and be intertwined with this faith.

3.) No one can earn salvation through any effort of their own or their own merit or their own works, but it comes only as a result of what Christ has already done as a gift, grace. 

Do Catholics and Protestants both believe these statements? It seems that they do to me, and the differences come from the role of works after faith or something of that nature.  But I could be wrong?

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Smalcad-

I think you really summed it up perfectly. The most important thing is not religion but faith. Every church has their own doctrine. Go to one that supports your belief and you find comfortable with.

Unfortunately, some doctrine is too man made and not scriptural. I left the Catholic Church because it had too many man made rules that is not scriptural. Plus, emphasized works more than faith.

I can't talk to my parents about salvation because they are too brainwashed that if they are good and believe in god they are saved. Nonesense. Faith must come first and the fruit from that faith PRODUCES THE GOOD WORKS.

[Pax]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument

[Smalcald]

Nevertheless, sprinkling some water over a baby's head won't change its soul.

Only Jesus can do that. And if the baby doesn't understand who Jesus is, it is hollow ritual.

And didn't Jesus say, "Let the little children come to me"?

[halifaxchristian]

Pax...you said:

There are two reasons why I usually don't qoute sources. Number one, is because I was told by two modertors not to link any Catholic sources or they will be deleted. Number two is because I get tired of looking up all the sources and then writing them down. I am not an expert on the Catholic Church but, I do feel like I have a good idea. If all of you want a source for what I look up on any topic Please refer to THE CATHECISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH. If you want to know what the seven Sacraments of the Church are, then get the Cathecism out and read about the Sacraments. Fiosh in your post above, it seems to me like you are hinting that I don't know what I am talking about and it is only an opinion. What I write about the Catholic Church is what she teaches. The last thing I want to do is spread falsehoods about the Church. There is enough of that on this board. And if you do think I ever write something that is only my opinion and not grounded in the truth, then let me know. I will tell you and everyone else what the Catholic Church specifcally teaches....It's all in the Cathecism.

I respond:

I think you are doing an excellent job of presenting Catholic doctrine. I find that you are being very honest and accurate in your depiction. I just don't believe the stuff you and your Church is saying. But I do believe that you are doing a fantastic job for the Popery.

[Pax]

Nevertheless, sprinkling some water over a baby's head won't change its soul.

Only Jesus can do that. And if the baby doesn't understand who Jesus is, it is hollow ritual.

And didn't Jesus say, "Let the little children come to me"?

[Pax]

Pax...you said:

There are two reasons why I usually don't qoute sources.  Number one, is because I was told by two modertors not to link any Catholic sources or they will be deleted.  Number two is because I get tired of looking up all the sources and then writing them down.  I am not an expert on the Catholic Church but, I do feel like I have a good idea.  If all of you want a source for what I look up on any topic Please refer to THE CATHECISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.  If you want to know what the seven Sacraments of the Church are, then get the Cathecism out and read about the Sacraments.  Fiosh in your post above, it seems to me like you are hinting that I don't know what I am talking about and it is only an opinion.  What I write about the Catholic Church is what she teaches.  The last thing I want to do is spread falsehoods about the Church.  There is enough of that on this board.  And if you do think I ever write something that is only my opinion and not grounded in the truth, then let me know.  I will tell you and everyone else what the Catholic Church specifcally teaches....It's all in the Cathecism.

I respond:

I think you are doing an excellent job of presenting Catholic doctrine.  I find that you are being very honest and accurate in your depiction.  I just don't believe the stuff you and your Church is saying.  But I do believe that you are doing a fantastic job for the Popery. 

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HC,

Thank you for the compliment. You might not agree with the Church, or what I have to say, but at least I am not misrepresenting the Church. Better be careful HC, you might come back home. I have seen people way more anti-Catholic than you come back to the Church. Do a google search on Scott Hahn, he has a great story. He also is an expert on the Bible. You will enjoy reading his story.

[Smalcald]

"I can't talk to my parents about salvation because they are too brainwashed that if they are good and believe in god they are saved. Nonesense. Faith must come first and the fruit from that faith PRODUCES THE GOOD WORKS."

Hi Nancy.

Do your parents profess faith in Christ as their Lord?

One of the great things to me of starting with faith alone is that there is such freedom and joy in having a relationship with Christ, versus trying to prove myself to Him, somehow.

The thing is that from the outside these two things look the same. A person who has true faith will have the works which flow from that faith, and the person who thinks works will help, but does not have faith will also have the same works. The difference is the joy; and the happy and secure heart which comes from the first, which is often unseen except by God.