UNDERSTANDING LAW AND GRACE

[Jake for Jesus]

Greetings in Jesus to all.

First a casual note to our dear brother Yod.

This one is for you!

However, others may of course post and to express their thoughts if they are so inclined to chose to do so. But so the discussion may be not drift too far off topic. Of course, its normal for discussions to drift off a bit. I am going to primarily focus on your response to my posts and what I am wanting to discuss with you now in this particular discussion isn't really about the problems of Messianic Judaism, but this important theme of the Bible which in foundational to our faith.

Perhaps after this discussion if you like we can have another discussion in which we can focus more on the existing problems in Messianic Judasim due to hyper-Messianic extremism that has now led Messianic Judaism into a time of crisis.

I will never write more than a one page per post for reasons in part I know posts longer than that often aren't read and I don't like to read long posts either.

I am going to begin with talking about the Law and ultimately to end with discussing grace. But my first few posts will be to lay a foundation for this discussion on law and grace; and first to talk about what the Bible says about the law that we may come to a clear understanding of the law before moving in this discussion to talk about what the Bible says about grace.

Please feel free to respond to my posts and to share your thoughts, and to ask questions for I think that would help to make for a better and more profitable discussion.

Firstly, I now want to begin with now talking about the law and to draw attention to this first great fact I have discovered about the law: It was given complete, once for all, through Moses.

I really would like for you to grasp this fact that it was given complete, once for all, through Moses. I believe it is important for us to first see this in Scripture.

Open with me now please to JOHN 1:17, it reads in my translation:

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

I want you to notice that phrase in the passage we just read "the law was given through Moses." Notice that it doesn't say some of the law! Not "some laws," or part of the "law," but the law ---- the whole law, complete and entire in one system ---- was given at one period in history and through the human instrumentality of one man only, and that man was Moses.

It's very important that we grasp this if we are going to really begin to understand the law, and will make for somethings I will talk more about later when we come to later to talk grace on this thread.

I would further like to draw attention to the fact that everywhere in Scripture, unless some special qualifying phrase is added to modify or change the meaning, the phrase "the law" denotes the complete system of law given by God through Moses. Confirmation of this is found in Romans. Turn with me now, please to Romans 5:13-15 in my translation those verses read:

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over the transgression of Adam.

Notice the two phrases indicating a definite period of time in that passage "until the law," and "from Adam to Moses"

When God created Adam, we know that God placed him in the garden, and God gave Adam not a complete system of law but a single negative commandment in Genesis 3:1-3 which reads in my Bible: You shall not eat ... the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden.

It was when Adam had transgressed this commandment, that sin came upon Adam and all his descendants from that time onward.

The evidence that sin came upon all men from the time of Adam onward isthe fact that all men became liable to death, which is the outcome of sin.

However, from the time that Adam transgressed against that first, single God-given commandment until the time of Moses, there was no God-given, God-enforced system of law revealed and applied to the human race.

This explains how the two phrases "until the law" (in the above passage we earlier read in Romans 5:13) and "from Adam to Moses" (in the next verse 14) denote the same period of human history ---- the period from Adam's transgression of the single commandment in the garden down to the time when the complete system of divine law was given by God through Moses.

TO BE CONTINUED . . . . .

Edited September 12, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest yod]

I'm with you so far...

yet there is a problem with the way you use the word "law" because I don't think that "the law came from Moses" is speaking ONLY about the rules contained in the torah.

As you probably know the word "torah" means instruction and this is what the jews call the 5 books of Moses.

However, the Greek word for the Torah is translated as "Law" which implies (to someone not familiar with the context of the Torah) that we are talking about rules, regulations, ordinances.

The "torah" is God's instruction. The Torah contains the levitical law but it also contains many examples of faithful saints.

So I don't think we can make a blanket statement about the word "law" meaning the rules contained therein. The "Law" (torah) is much more than that. The Torah is where the concept of God's grace first came from.

[Jake for Jesus]

Yod wrote:

I'm with you so far...

Yet there is a problem with the way you use the word "law" because I don't think that "the law came from Moses" is speaking ONLY about the rules contained in the Torah.

My Response:

We may can come back to that later if you like but I believe this will start to unfold better after more posts. I am trying to keep my posts short and doing so I am unable to complete my thought in such a short post. But for now I would only like to draw you attention to my last post in which I wrote without having to repeat everything I wrote again: "Everywhere in Scripture, unless some special qualifying phrase is added to modify or change the meaning, the phrase "the law" denotes the complete system of law given by God through Moses. Confirmation is found in Romans 5:13-14."

By the way before I try to pick this back up from my last post I will share with you something kind of humorous that once happen to me at a church I had been invited to speak at or at least it was humorous to me any way. My feet were hurting that evening and I took my shoes off, and preached in my socks and I heard somebody in the back of church say, "crucify him!"

I guess I must have broken one of their little silly religious rules. (smiling)

I will try to pick back up now from my last post to take this on a little further.

In my studies I have discovered that during this period from Adam's trangression of the single commandment ["You shall not eat ... of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden" Genesis 3:1-3] down to the time when the complete system of divine law was given by God through Moses. During this period the human race was without any system of God-given, God-enforced law. This is in full accord with the statement already quoted from JOHN 1:17 in my last post: The law was given through Moses.

This law that was given through Moses was a single, complete system of commandments, statutes, ordinances and judments. All these are contained, in their entirely. within the compass of the four books of the Bible --- EXODUS, LEVITICUS, NUMBERS and DEUTERONOMY.

Before the time of Moses there was no divine system of law given to the human race. Furthermore, after the close of this period, nothing further was ever added to this system of law. That the law was thus given once for all, complete, and this is made plain by the words of Moses:

Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and judments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

----- DEUTERONOMY 4:1-2

These words show that the system of law given by God to Israel through Moses was complete and final. Thereafter nothing more was ever to be added to it and nothing was ever to be taken away from it.

This leads us naturally to the next great fact which must be clearly established in relation to keeping the law: Every person who comes under the law is thereby obliged to observe the whole system of law in its entirety at all times.

There is no question of observing certain parts of the law and omiting certain other parts. Nor is there any question of keeping the law at certain times and failing to keep it at other times. Any person who comes under the law is necessarily obliged to keep the whole law at all times.

Open with me please to James 2:10-11 it reads in my translation:

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said. "Do not murder." Now if you do not committ adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

This is clear and logical. A person cannot say, "I consider certain points of the law to be important, so I will observe these; but I consider certain other points of the law to be unimportant, so I will not observe those."

Any person under the law must observe all its requirements at all times. If he breaks only one point, he has broken the whole law.

The law is a single, complete system which cannot be divided up into some points which are applied and others not applied. As a means of righteousness, the whole law must be accepted and applied, complete and entire, as a single system, or it is of no benefit or validity whatever.

Are you with me so far?

TO BE CONTINUED . . . . .

Edited September 12, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Before the time of Moses there was no divine system of law given to the human race. Furthermore, after the close of this period, nothing further was ever added to this system of law.

Not so. Law means "standard." There had to be a standard that set Noah apart from the rest of the sinful environment of his day. If there was no standard, then there would have been no justification for the flood, no way to determine why exactly what these people were doing that was so evil. Noah was the only one living by that standard, not because he was the only one who knew about it, but because he was the only one who chose to obey.

Abel understood sacrifices.

Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals, and knew how to present a proper sacrifice (as did Abraham).

Job who lived prior to Sinai also lived uprightly before the Lord and understood what a proper sacrifice was, and lived a life that was pleasing before the Lord.

Noah preached repentance for 120 years before the flood, so even then the people had an opportunity to avert the flood had they obeyed the preaching of Noah.

Even Abraham lived according to God's commandments:

Genesis 26:4-5

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (Heb. Torah)

He no doubt taught them to his sons. This may not have been identical to what was given at Sinai, but to say there was NO standard or law given to mankind is not true.

When God said that he was going to destroy Sodom and Ghommorah for their wickedness, how did Abraham know what God was talking about? How would one have known that Sodom and Ghommorah were wicked if there was no standard against which to judge them?

This leads us naturally to the next great fact which must be clearly established in relation to keeping the law: Every person who comes under the law is thereby obliged to observe the whole system of law in its entirety at all times.

There is no question of observing certain parts of the law and omiting certain other parts. Nor is there any question of keeping the law at certain times and failing to keep it at other times. Any person who comes under the law is necessarily obliged to keep the whole law at all times.

More accurately, one was required to keep all those commandments that applied to his individual life situation. Jesus, for example did not keep all 613 commandments. He was not a Levite, so He would not have kept the commandments that applied to Levites, He was not a woman, not married, had no children, so He would not have observed any commandments that others in those situations would have had to keep.

Who says were are not still obliged to keep the whole Torah? The word Torah means "teaching," and the entire word of God is Torah. The New Testament is simply an extension of the Torah given at Sinai. It is not a different moral code, but rather, an amplification of the Torah's moral code. The New Testament is just as much "Torah" as the OT. We still have the Torah, we still have a sacrificial system, etc. It is just that in the NT, the righteousness of the Torah is fulfilled in us by Yeshua Himself. He is our sacrifice and our High Priest.

John, in chapt. 1:17 is comparing Moses and Yeshua, NOT the Torah vs. Grace and Truth.

He is not saying that grace and truth are somehow greater than the Torah, because the Torah is part of the Word of God which is by nature Divine truth, and through its sacrificial system demonstrated the grace of God. Yeshua is greater than Moses because Moses delivered the Torah in written form, but Yeshua was the demonstration of the Grace and Truth of God, and in His eternal role as "The Word of God," has been bestowing Grace and Truth to mankind from the very first day of creation.

Open with me please to James 2:10-1 it reads in my translation:

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said. "Do not murder." Now if you do not committ adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

This is clear and logical. A person cannot say, "I consider certain points of the law to be important, so I will observe these; but I consider certain other points of the law to be unimportant, so I will not observe those."

Any person under the law must observe all its requirements at all times. If he breaks only one point, he has broken the whole law.

The law is a single, complete system which cannot be divided up into some points which are applied and others not applied. As a means of righteousness, the whole law must be accepted and applied, complete and entire, as a single system, or it is of no benefit or validity whatever.

This is in agreement with the Rabbis who teach that if one abrogates one commandment, it is as if he as abrogated the authority of the entire Torah.

It is not really biblical to juxtapose "Law and Grace." They are two wings of the same bird. We need both God's instructions and His Grace when we fail to keep His instructions.

[Remnant]

shiloh thats the right idea of law and grace.....as i stated in another post...if we are not keeping the commandments..we are not in harmony with god or in fellowship with Jesus. as a matter of fact, we are liars before the lord and we dont even know him!!!!

Thus saith the Lord.....1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Remnant

[Jake for Jesus]

Yod, before I say anything else here. I would be interested in knowing if you agree with the expressed veiws posted by the two posters who have posted above? Also I would like to know if you believe their expressed veiws are held by the majority of the Messianic Movement at this time?

[Jake for Jesus]

shiloh357 wrote:

Not so.

My Response:

First a causal note to Shiloh!

What I hear you saying in reading your post is that everything I say in not so, and that you do not have any respect for the veiews of others that may be different from your own. I am just curious if you had attended the "I am always right!" University? (smiling)

Now to all.

If you ever hold a Bible study to try to help others and only two people show up and all they are interested in is in agruing about everything. What do you do? lol

I would have to think it may well be just a waste of time. I may not take this on any further for I am now beginning to think that there may well be more profitable ways to spend my time. I mean if everybody knows everything and think you are wrong about everything. Then I would have to think it would be a complete waste of time. Especially if the only interest is in holding on to what they have been told and defending it. I don't know that it would be possible to further ones learning if we are like that. On the other hand, I find that many people who study alone are like that, and are unable to tolerate the veiws of others that may be different from their own. Well, what is that? And now I am just curious to see if those who are like that will even try to defend that fact that they are like that? Any way we shall soon see! (smiling)

Edited September 13, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Not so.

My Response:

First a causal note to Shiloh!

What I hear you saying in reading your post is that everything I say in not so, and that you may not have any respect for what others may be outside of you own or what you have been told that you believe and you cannot not possibly be wrong about anything. (smiling)

Actually I only took issue with some things you said, and agreed with other things you said. I am sorry that you choose not to acknowledge that.

"Not so" was in response to your remark that there was NO system of God enforced law prior to the Torah given at Sinai, and I demonstrated as fact, the simple truth that there is no way to define those who were righteous in God's eyes prior to Sinai, unless some standard existed to measure them against. There was a standard that set Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job, and others apart from the rest of the unGodly. That was what "not so" was directed against.

It has nothing to do with thinking that I cannot be possibly wrong. But heretofore, you have failed to demonstrate WHY the above remarks are wrong.

If you ever hold a Bible study to try to help others and only two people show up and all they are interested in is in agruing about everything. What do you do? lol

I would have to think it may well be just a waste of time. I may not take this on any further for I am now beginning to think that there may well be more profitable ways to spend my time.

So you expected us to just suck up what you're saying with absolutely no rebuttal or disagreement? Your beliefs are to accepted without challenge? Perhaps that is not what you mean, but that is how it comes across.

I don't know that it would be possible to further ones learning if we are like that. On the other hand, I find that many people who study alone are like that, and are unable to tolerate the veiws of others that may be different from their own. Well, what is that? (smiling)

Except, that I don't study alone. The Lord has given marvelous comrades to me, who I enjoy fellowship and study with. Some are much more learned than I and are both Jewish and Gentile. I have found to be true, the biblical truth that there is safety in the multitude of counselors.

No one is stopping you from posting your points of view, no one is pushing you away. It would appear that the one with a tolerance problem is you.

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh, you are wanting to do they "Yes, it is!" and "No, it's not!" thing.

Do you know what I am going to do? I am going to leave you right where you are. But I am sure you can find someone who doesn't mind wasting their time in that way that may not have anything else better to do with their time. (smiling)

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, you are wanting to do they "Yes, it is!" and "No, it's not!" thing.

Do you know what I am going to do? I am going to leave you right where you are. But I am sure you can find someone who doesn't mind wasting their time in that way that may not have anything else better to do with their time. (smiling)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So demonstrating where I am wrong is a waste of your time?

Ok... whatever....