QUESTION

[EricH]

That is why "Persevering of the Saints" is a better description. The doctrine states that genuine believers will not fall away.

[Trust & Obey]

That is why "Persevering of the Saints" is a better description. The doctrine states that genuine believers will not fall away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or if they do, as in the case of the Prodigal Son, they will ultimately return to God.

[Kansasdad]

Pax, you need to go back and read the Parable of the Sower. In it Jesus explained that there are 4 basic responses to the gospel. One outright rejects it. He is not saved. Two receive it gladly and then fall away after a period of time. These are not saved either. Lastly, one receives it and it bears fruit in their life. This is the only one that is saved.

The two that received it and fell away later were not saved. Although, they certainly appeared to be in the early days/weeks/months after their profession. But, only the seed that fell on good soil actually bears fruit unto salvation.

This is in perfect keeping with what "your Baptist upbringing" taught you. There will be many who profess Christ. Some will follow Him for their whole lives, others will fall away after a period of time. Those that fall away after a period of time are simply demonstrating that their soil was not good. These people were never saved to begin with and their falling away simply demonstrates that.

I think this is where two different conclusions are being made.  You are concluding that this person was never saved in the first place, but that is not necessarly the only conclusion.  Just as likely is that this person did accept the Grace of God, and at that moment was living in the Grace of God.  If he/she would have died at that moment they would be in heaven.  However if they do not nurture their faith, feist in the word of God, continue to "work out their salvation"  They will lose it, because it will wither and die.  This can be seen as a very strong argument that one must continue to work out ones salvation or it will wither and die.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Kansasdad]

Great answer Pax, I agree 100%

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Kahlan! You are so in our prayers, Hope you are doing well. Your strength has been amazing!

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[EricH]

That is why "Persevering of the Saints" is a better description. The doctrine states that genuine believers will not fall away.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or if they do, as in the case of the Prodigal Son, they will ultimately return to God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen and amen

[ruah brit]

Hi everybody!

Haven't been here for a while and I miss you all... I hope that all of you are well.

OK

Here's my question:

IS IT POSSIBLE FOR A SAVED PERSON TO KNOWINGLY, WILLINGLY AND UNREPENTANTLY KEEP SINNING AND STILL GO TO HEAVEN?

Please give scripturale support AND personal opinions welcomed.

Thanks!

Lorry 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lu 20

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

Joh 3

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Ro 8

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Denise

[DaBronx]

OK...

Here's what I believe:

I don't believe that a person who is truly born again (and, true, only God knows who that person is) can sin deliberately and that if that person doesn't repent before dying then that person was never really saved in the first place.

My Pastor says "no" that "your sins were nailed to the cross" and that anyone who confeses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and accepts Him as their Lord and Saviour is saved.

My problem with that is: I believe he is taking the meaning of "accept" waaaaay too lightly...That accepting would mean you will do your best to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, live righteously and be done with the world...That although we will always sin we will feel convicted and repent.

He says not always...

Any comments?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All of us can sin deliberately, and do at one time or another, this is called a freewill. No one is perfect. Your argument is a textbook example of a person who believes in once saved, always saved, and this is the exact same thing I was taught growing up in the Baptist Church. All we have to do is profess that Jesus Christ died on the cross and we are saved...that's it, plain and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, no no! I DON'T believe once saved always saved... I actually think there is danger in that way of thinking...here's why:

If you believe that salvation can be lost and you are wrong - in the end, you will simply have worked harder at something you already had.

BUT

If you believe that all you have to do is confess that Jesus died for your sins and are saved forever then continue to sin freely consequences being that you are simply "just" missing out on lifelong blessings then you are in danger of going straight to hell!

Big difference, no?

[Trust & Obey]

Pax, you need to go back and read the Parable of the Sower. In it Jesus explained that there are 4 basic responses to the gospel. One outright rejects it. He is not saved. Two receive it gladly and then fall away after a period of time. These are not saved either. Lastly, one receives it and it bears fruit in their life. This is the only one that is saved.

The two that received it and fell away later were not saved. Although, they certainly appeared to be in the early days/weeks/months after their profession. But, only the seed that fell on good soil actually bears fruit unto salvation.

This is in perfect keeping with what "your Baptist upbringing" taught you. There will be many who profess Christ. Some will follow Him for their whole lives, others will fall away after a period of time. Those that fall away after a period of time are simply demonstrating that their soil was not good. These people were never saved to begin with and their falling away simply demonstrates that.

I think this is where two different conclusions are being made. You are concluding that this person was never saved in the first place, but that is not necessarly the only conclusion. Just as likely is that this person did accept the Grace of God, and at that moment was living in the Grace of God. If he/she would have died at that moment they would be in heaven. However if they do not nurture their faith, feist in the word of God, continue to "work out their salvation" They will lose it, because it will wither and die. This can be seen as a very strong argument that one must continue to work out ones salvation or it will wither and die.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Pax, it can't be both ways. It has to be one way or the other.

Did not Jesus's Parable fo the Sower clearly show that 2 of the soils give a false impression of a successful crop, but time reveals that the soil was either rocky or thorny and thus the seed didn't take proper root?

[Kansasdad]

Pax, you need to go back and read the Parable of the Sower. In it Jesus explained that there are 4 basic responses to the gospel. One outright rejects it. He is not saved. Two receive it gladly and then fall away after a period of time. These are not saved either. Lastly, one receives it and it bears fruit in their life. This is the only one that is saved.

The two that received it and fell away later were not saved. Although, they certainly appeared to be in the early days/weeks/months after their profession. But, only the seed that fell on good soil actually bears fruit unto salvation.

This is in perfect keeping with what "your Baptist upbringing" taught you. There will be many who profess Christ. Some will follow Him for their whole lives, others will fall away after a period of time. Those that fall away after a period of time are simply demonstrating that their soil was not good. These people were never saved to begin with and their falling away simply demonstrates that.

I think this is where two different conclusions are being made. You are concluding that this person was never saved in the first place, but that is not necessarily the only conclusion. Just as likely is that this person did accept the Grace of God, and at that moment was living in the Grace of God. If he/she would have died at that moment they would be in heaven. However if they do not nurture their faith, feist in the word of God, continue to "work out their salvation" They will lose it, because it will wither and die. This can be seen as a very strong argument that one must continue to work out ones salvation or it will wither and die.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Pax, it can't be both ways. It has to be one way or the other.

Did not Jesus's Parable fo the Sower clearly show that 2 of the soils give a false impression of a successful crop, but time reveals that the soil was either rocky or thorny and thus the seed didn't take proper root?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pax didn't write that. I agree it is either one interpretation or the other, they do not co-exist. The seed did take root and it did sprout but the soil was not maintained. To have good soil you have to not only prepare it right but you have to maintain it through out the growing process. fertilizer, weed killers, water etc. The seed started to grow but then withered and died. How do we maintain good soil. We do it by Feasting on the word of God. By doing as God commands us to do. this is how we work out our salvation. Again I see this as a strong argument for showing that it is something we can have but we can also let it die.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

[Trust & Obey]

Pax, you need to go back and read the Parable of the Sower. In it Jesus explained that there are 4 basic responses to the gospel. One outright rejects it. He is not saved. Two receive it gladly and then fall away after a period of time. These are not saved either. Lastly, one receives it and it bears fruit in their life. This is the only one that is saved.

The two that received it and fell away later were not saved. Although, they certainly appeared to be in the early days/weeks/months after their profession. But, only the seed that fell on good soil actually bears fruit unto salvation.

This is in perfect keeping with what "your Baptist upbringing" taught you. There will be many who profess Christ. Some will follow Him for their whole lives, others will fall away after a period of time. Those that fall away after a period of time are simply demonstrating that their soil was not good. These people were never saved to begin with and their falling away simply demonstrates that.

I think this is where two different conclusions are being made. You are concluding that this person was never saved in the first place, but that is not necessarily the only conclusion. Just as likely is that this person did accept the Grace of God, and at that moment was living in the Grace of God. If he/she would have died at that moment they would be in heaven. However if they do not nurture their faith, feist in the word of God, continue to "work out their salvation" They will lose it, because it will wither and die. This can be seen as a very strong argument that one must continue to work out ones salvation or it will wither and die.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

Pax, it can't be both ways. It has to be one way or the other.

Did not Jesus's Parable fo the Sower clearly show that 2 of the soils give a false impression of a successful crop, but time reveals that the soil was either rocky or thorny and thus the seed didn't take proper root?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pax didn't write that. I agree it is either one interpretation or the other, they do not co-exist. The seed did take root and it did sprout but the soil was not maintained. To have good soil you have to not only prepare it right but you have to maintain it through out the growing process. fertilizer, weed killers, water etc. The seed started to grow but then withered and died. How do we maintain good soil. We do it by Feasting on the word of God. By doing as God commands us to do. this is how we work out our salvation. Again I see this as a strong argument for showing that it is something we can have but we can also let it die.

God Bless,

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are somewhat correct on the description of maintaining the soil, but this was not the situation Jesus laid out.

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: (i.e. the soil was stony at the time the seed was sown, meaning the soil was not properly prepared... no hint here of "maintenance")

Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: (same here... the thorns were present at the time the seed was sown)

Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The point is that these people's hearts were not softened and in the place necessary to respond properly to the gospel.

The reason these people fell away (due to the cares of the world and deceitfulness of riches... and because of persecution) is because they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to keep them.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The Bible is clear that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He will finish the work He begins in us and we are kept by the power of God.

Does Jesus fail to keep certain of His flock?

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.